2009 Formative Years Lincoln Cent Doubled Dies
Several collectors have identified doubled die varieties for the 2009 Lincoln Cent Formative Years design. The story made the front page of this week's issue of Coin World, which describes four different doubled die reverse varieties.
The doubling occurs on the reverse of the coin, around the area of Lincoln's hand, which holds the book. The first variety shows a completely separate "extra finger" between Lincoln's thumb and index finger. This one is the most visually dramatic and might get the most attention. The second variety shows doubling on Lincoln's thumb. The third shows an "extra thumb" just above Lincoln's index finger. The fourth variety shows an extra finger just below the thumb, but not as dramatically as the first variety.
The rarity of these Doubled Die Formative Years Cents still remains to be seen, but there are already over 100 listings on eBay. Earlier completed auctions show the coins selling for $20-$30, but the influx of new listings following the Coin World coverage might drive prices down.
Last week, I had opened one of my 2009 Lincoln Cents Formative Years Two Roll Sets before news of the doubled dies became more widespread. I had come across two coins with a significant die crack on the reverse that extended from the rim, almost all the way through Lincoln's head. I also found two coins that were higher grade. I put these few examples aside and put the remaining coins in a plastic tube.
After seeing the reports of the doubled dies, I went back through the Philadelphia roll and found at least one example of what appears to be the third variety with an "extra thumb." The images below show the coin with the doubling compared to a regular coin.
My pictures are not the best since I only have a scanner. Clearer images can be seen in Coin World's article, or on this page from DoubledDie.com.
Has anyone else found doubled dies? You can describe your finds in the comments, or post pictures over on Coin Network.
Labels: 2009 Lincoln Cents
posted by Mint News Blog @ 1:57 PM
38 Comments:
double dies, but I did find a die scratch error on the reverse of the 2009 P Tyler dollar
what state were these found in?
I found one in the Philadelphia roll of the US Mint's Two Roll Sets. Most other reports also seem to mention the doubled dies coming from the Two Roll Sets.
Has the mint director made any offical comments about the Lincoln errors? Any estimates of the population of the errors. Just what went wrong at the P Mint?
I opened one of my mint boxes dated 4/21 - apparently box date is the key - and found eleven in various states of the same error - the weak extra thumb. I'm just wondering, if they are this common will they be worth a lot? I am planning to save the loose pennies nonetheless...
Box dated 04/20/09. P roll had four of WDDR-002 variety.
Found 1 very gemmy WDDR-002 P Mint in a two roll set purchased from the Mint. The box was dated 4/28/09.
Dumb question: Would it be better to take the coins out and search them or to leave them in the box?
It appears that many people are opening their box sets to look for the errors. I had originally planned to keep my boxes unopened; however, I have heard something mentioned about the mint wrappers being caustic to the pennies. Is this true? What would be the best approach in the long run?
WWLD- What would Lincoln do?
Emancipate the pennies!
So my question is:
How does one go about reporting these errors? I know that there are many errors found each year, but only a few of them actually make headlines (Wisconsin leaves, extra fingers, etc.).
I have an interesting error that shows, literally, a die chip on Lincoln's shoulder.
I'm very surprised that everyone is quick to call this a double die.A double die by definition from what I understand would be a complete doubling of many parts of the die and in effect causing the die to double in many divice areas of the coin.To see one small area which does not appear to be a doubling of anything really makes me wonder is this is merely just a large cud or some type of die clash.But to call this a double die and give it a designation?I think not.Now people are buying these up on ebay like it's the biggest error since the 1969 S double die.Come on now.In my opinion.This is no double die at all.And to see other say it is just makes me wonder where the collecting world is headed.I have yet to see one graded and if I do I will never buy from that grading company again.Marketing has over taken what used to be a real error world.Now any old cud can become a double die.PLEASE!!!!! give me a break and get back to reality.Quit marketing this crap and find something substantial for a change.I don't mean to be a stick in the mud about this.But I really don't see all this WDDR crap being real.
For coin world to call this a double die really makes me think that the marketing of this coin is over rated and completely wrong.Over 100 on ebay already and prices dropping quickly only lends to the fact that Coin World got this wrong if they called it a WDDR.Is this what is to be expected from so many collectors that don't know the difference between a real double die and a simple cud or die clash.This penny in my opinion is worth less then a penny.Because it makes it an ungradable coin.I can appreciate that people are trying to find errors on these coins.But to degrade a coin and call it a WDDR when by definition it clearly couldn't be.Only tells me that the lack of experience in identifying a true Double Die is ever present even by so called experienced coin marketing agencies.Save your money and buy a real Double Die.If that is what your into.But in my opinion.This is no Double Die at all.
Lets look at this on another approach.The Formative years came out and completely flopped.Prices are much lower then expected for the boxes on ebay.In the beginning the fed boxes were going for 350.00 and even more.Then in two weeks time.They have dropped to 150.00 buy it now.The LP2 boxes have been a complete disaster for resale.I've seen most averaging 15.00 a box.20.00 if someone gets lucky and 25.00 if two yellow stars start fighting over it out of stupidity.Something had to be done to stop this disaster.And low and behold.Someone found a Double Die in a LP2 box.Imagine that.Now prices are up to 25.00 a box of LP2s.Hmmmmmmmm.Is this just straight out marketing or what.The So Called Double Die is a joke to me.I think if anyone buys this junk they deserve to live with the devastation of their bad investment.Of course this is just my opinion. If you want one.Go get it.There are hundreds of them on ebay to be bought from many unprofessional coin sellers.I actually think it would make a great paypal claim myself.And to think any professional coin business would call this a WDDR is disturbing to me as an old collector who knows better.UN FREAKIN REAL.The coin world has really lost it in my opinion.And if something isn't done to stop it.Then collecting will be known as a world of rip off artist.Not a world of respected coin collectors.Someone please stop this madness.
Nothing more then a over glorified DIE BREAK ERROR
Might not be a DD, yet, a significant variety. Kinda like a 3 legged buffalo, extra trees, no edge letters, or reverse of 07. When something extra shows up in the die or something is missing from the die or something is wrong with it in any way - it usually translates into extra demand.
Does EXTRA BEAR CLAW ring a bell.It was a die break error in the Alaska P Quarter that never took off because that is what it was.The same thing this is A DIE BREAK ERROR
To me it only translates in extra money for those taking advantage of people who don't know any better.Call it demand.I call it a rip off.
I can see the listings on ebay now."Buy this LP2 because it could have the WDDR-001" LOL PLEASE!!!!!!
The funniest thing about it is.Even if you do find one.It will probably be so spotted that a true grade would kill any value that the so called experts say these are worth.Glorified die break with spots.Wow I'll take as many as I can get.NOT !!!!!!!
well its a good thing if everyone opens the boxes, that just mean less sealed boxed
: )
That's what I have always thought, Eric. However, I seem to hear periodic rumblings about how caustic these wrappers are due to their sulfur content. Thoughts?
This series is turning into a loser. Heavy spots, caustic wrappers, overproduction of the second release, false claims about double die errors, banks selling boxes on ebait, and the grading companies that refuse to certify first strikes unless you submit 2400 pieces at a time. The best thing to do is set em free into the great pool of circulation. That is where they belong so they can be enjoyed by all.
Ya, the collector picked up the tab on this on. I would think that rounds 3 and 4 get minimium attention by the collector. The mint used collectors to supplement the high price of copper in the new cents intended for circulation.
I have really lost all respect for Coin world for recognizing these so called errors as a WDDR.How can this simple cud be called a DDR?It's a die break at best.Die breaks are very common in P mint coins.That is why so many are being found.And for so called professionals to actually attribute this as a double die is a disgrace to all who were involved in the recognition of this mass confusion.I bet some authorized dealer with one of the so called top grading companies is trying to get first strike DDRs graded as we type.I'm waiting for this to happen just to watch how many people get ripped on that deal.Look at a 1983 DDR.Now go look at the 2009 so called ddr.What a complete ignorant attribution this is.If any grading company allows this to happen.They will lose much respect from collectors who know better.So go market that junk and see where it gets your reputation.What ever happened to honesty and integrity.I'm sure Abe Lincoln is not in approval of this one.What a great way to celebrate Abe's 200ths anniversary.With greedy slime buckets who could care less if the collectors are getting what they are paying for.I've decided to dedicate my time fighting this madness.Until something is done to stop this and keep unknowing collectors from getting completely ripped off.Our mint should be ashamed as well for putting the burden of their faults on collectors who have carried their butts for so many years.
THESE ARE NOT TRUE DOUBLE DIES. YES, I AM TYPING UPPERCASE YELLING. A TRUE DOUBLE DIE IS WORTH MORE THAN THIS JUNK.
Where is Wexler and Crawford.Why don't they come on here and debate me about these so called WDDRs And CDDRs.If your scared,Say your scared.You should be scared.Because this is one debate I know you would lose.You two are the laughing stock of the coin collecting world.I wonder how many people you have ripped off on this bogus claim.It's people like you that cause honest first time error collectors to stop collecting before they even get started.I hope someone sues you over this bull crap.to take a simple die break error and try to turn it into a DDR is the lowest of lows.I think both of you owe the coin collecting world a huge apology.And to think coin world magazine announced this is just completely wrong and false advertising at it's worse.What a complete bunch of morons all of you are.And to think you wrote books.Thats even more of a joke.You guys must be on some kind of hallucinogenic to even imagine that these 2009 P formatives are WDDRs or CDDRs.To say these look like a index finger or a thumb.Please!!!!!. Hey how about one big middle finger to both of you for this bogus claim.At least debate your findings on here if your not scared.Go ahead try to make me the fool.I don't think you have the gonads to do it.I know you don't have the knowledge. I hope everyone reads my opinion and has a class action suit against these clowns.People are getting ripped off on ebay and everywhere else now because of this false claim.
So many clueless people posting that it makes my head hurt. First of all, it cannot possibly be a cud- cuds affect the shank and face of a die so they can only be found emanating from the edge of a coin and never on the interior- that would just be a simple die chip or break. Second of all, John Wexler, Billy Crawford, and Ken Potter have forgotten more about die varieties than most of you will learn in a lifetime. Thirdly, if you think all doubled dies look like the famous 1955, 1969-S, or 1972, then you have some serious learning to do. Nine types of doubled dies have been described but most are not possible to create in a US mint any more. Why? The Mint now uses a single hubbing process instead of double hubbing. Wide, dramatic spreads are just not possible with single hubbing and in the beginning, it was even thought that doubled dies would be impossible. That turned out to not be true but all modern doubled dies now only have close spread doubling isolated to the center of the coin. This is why things like doubled ears, extra branches on trees(Minnesota), and extra piano keys(Wash DC) occur. Before you critize, you might want to check you ego at the door because you really know a lot less about numismatics and die varieties than you think you know...
Months and months later, I still havn't seen a single Birthplace or Formative year penny in circulation. I check my change everyday and always ask cashiers to check their tills for new coins - not a one.
Way to go BOB you hit the nail on the head.It seems like the people on here need more education.
I wonders how much Bod has made off of these bogus DDRs.Perhaps you should figure out that the coin marketing today has become full of scams every where.Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.At last count there was what?63 ddr varieties LOL Please.I've also seen some of the so called lincoln birth DDRs.LOL and that DDO formative.Oh come on now.Is it no surprise that NGC and PCGS refuses to attribute these.Only ANACS has started to attribute them and they have bombed in sales all except for one lucky proof coin that was found.Please understand that I really could care less how you feel Bob.You obviously are a follower.So, has it even crossed your mind why the two top grading companies refuse to attribute these so called DDRs yet.Or do you just wish to see the DDR-100 LOL.So if you think people need more educating on DDRs or DDOs.Perhaps you should just sit back enjoy the ride and get rich off of people who have more money then cents.
When it all gets down to it.I've only seen the people who are profiting heavily off of this run to Wexler,Crawfords,And Potters defense.But hey!!! Why should you be any different.Go make that money off the idiots.At least I sleep well at night knowing I didn't fall into this lame DDR trap.Seems coins and scams go hand and hand any more.Respect and trust has been kicked to the curb on this one.Common sense should kick in by now.As a matter of fact.If you look at the auctions on these coins.I do believe common sense is the winner.It's just a shame that there seems to be a shortage of honesty in this country right now.Propaganda and running rackets like this has caused many people to move away from coinage.
You mentioned the fact that doubling should be impossible now.So have you looked into and asked the mint how this could possibly happen? So the supposed nail you hit on the head should really feel more like a thorn in your side.This is really quite pointless anyway.Because after seeing the auctions everywhere and seeing ANACS be the sell outs on this attribution.I'm convinced that coins have just become a racket any more instead of a work of art that is appreciated and used to tell history.I'm done now.I think I made my point quite clear.
I'm glad ANACS has attributed these coins.It just goes to show what a good contract can accomplish.Specially when it involves the contracts with Wexler and ANACS.ICG has taken over the oldest and most respected grading service and made them the laughing stock of the coin world.Way to go ANACS.Make all that money that PCGS and NGC refused to be involved with.And just think.On August 13th.It will all start all over again.I'm thinking some nice true off centers would help the US Mint on this next series.Maybe even a completely new type of variety no one has even come up with yet.Hey,With every knew process.There should be new variety types. Right? Go scammers !!! I can't wait to see what the next errors will be just to make an attempt to keep this series popular.You can count on one thing for sure.Someone,Some where will come up with something.Maybe this time it will be something worthy of PCGS recognition.LOL
Your extreme lack of education is showing again. Anonymously attacking me on some random blog is pretty bush-league but whatever. No, I have not profited on any of these Lincoln DDRs, I only own one and I found it in a roll. After going to the single squeeze hubbing process, it was thought that doubled dies would be impossible but the US Mint was wrong. In fact, the single squeeze hub process created a new class of doubled dies, Class 9 shifted hub doubling, caused during the initial seating of the die against the hub. This creates close spread doubled dies at the center of the coin. Just because you call them "bogus" does not make it so as you apparently have no idea what exactly a Class 9 doubled die is. Also, just because PCGS and NGC do not recognize something, that does not mean it doesn't exist. PCGS and NGC are not the final arbitors on all things coin related, there are thousands of doubled dies, RPMs, and other die varieties that those two do not attribute. Does that mean they don't exist? Thousands of VAMs are known on Morgan and Peace dollars yet those two companies only attribute Top 100 and Hot 50 VAMs. Are you saying that Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis just made up a bunch of random VAM numbers since PCGS and NGC will not attribute them? It sounds like you are the follower that worships at the alter of PCGS/NGC. ANACS attributes all VAMs and many other varieties(including the Lincoln DDRs) because they specialize in attributing die varieties! Your arguments are weak and completely lack factual numismatic relevance, you lose at life mr anonymous...
2009 Lincoln Cent Errors
I've had a lot of fun compiling a photo and text descriptive collection of MOST of the (70+) FY Lincoln Cent errors this year. Man, what a plethora of information! I have quite a few unlisted by Crawford, Wexler and the rest, that I've found by buying individual coins and LP2 Boxes from sellers on EBAY.
I also made a list of errors, with date, time and lot numbers printed on the side of boxes (LP2 U.S. Mint product).
It's really fascinating to me tracking the evolution of the error types CDDR-001 to WDDR-070+.
I don't understand why PCGS and other grading companies are turning down a TON of business by not certifying/grading the sometimes rare varieties. I think that these Lincoln Cent errors are the most prominent doubled die errors since 1955!
Some error coins show less delineation in the strike, and I figured these coins are early or later states of that particular die and error. I've found a few unattributed as of yet, I guess Wexler and Crawford and the rest have grown weary keeping track of the sheer number of errors!
I have been selling these 2009 P Lincoln Cent "Formative Years" error coins on eBAY for about 2 months now, and they seem to be gaining in popularity still, even though the new issue is already available.
You just can't seem to find these errors out here in the West. Banks don't have them, and with coin store premiums, prices are about $100.00 for a $25.00 box of "FY" 2009 P bank-wrapped rolls of pennies.
It has become confusing for buyers on eBAY because the listings of error cents are sometimes by Crawford, sometimes by Wexler numbers. Its ok when we're talking about CDDR-003 and WDDR-003, but when we are looking for a "Skeleton Finger" CDDR-009/WDDR-006. I
Its easy to get the many error numbers transposed when ordering, and end up with the wrong coin being delivered. For this reason I have been using a shorthand version of Crawford and Wexler numbers, for example, C1W2 is easier to notate than all those zeroes. And if a C53W49 becomes available on an auction, my want list is a lot clearer and easier to read.
More errors are still being discovered, it makes one wonder what was going on in the Philadelphia Mint this year?
Apparently, the Denver Mint experienced NO doubled die reverses that have so far been reported, compared to the 70+ different 2009 Philadelphia Mint FY Reverse doubled die error varieties!
I am certainly losing respect for some grader's or authenticator's or whatever because it seem's to me that since collecting is a hobby?? the big timer's don't like competition...too quick to shoot the beginner down and very rudely!!one would think it's like fishing,hunting,etc...they immediately say,you need good pix,then you need better pix,then they're too small,too big,low resolution......or no it's not!!!When it's as plain as the nose on your face!blah,blah,blah
And no,I won't talk annonymously.
My respect for a few big timer's is gone for good!!
PennyLoafer63
What a shame after buying their over priced book's!
Cathy, I have seen your pictures on various forums and quite frankly, they are mediocre- that is why you are asked for larger and clearer pics. You think you have all of these doubled dies but you are unfortunately wrong and multiple experts have told you this but you refuse to believe it. You need to closely study the characteristics of doubled dies and then closely study the characteristics of machine doubling because it is obvious that you are continuing to confuse the two. Taking you anger out on experts who are only being truthful does not help your cause and you are not attempting to learn from the advice given to you.
Ilive in bel air,maryland and got a box of fromative years fropm my bank. i have gone through 9 rolls and have found 19 wwdo-31 doubled thumbs
Cool site, I hadn't noticed mintnewsblog.blogspot.com earlier during my searches!
Carry on the great work!
the 2009 wddr-014 is the only error that appears in the new 2011 professional edition red book i don't see any one selling these errors i bought some rolls from my bank when they first came out that had special wrappers from coins of America and found about 25 of them.has anyone found any of these errors ?????
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