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Tuesday, July 6, 2010

US Mint Updates Gold and Platinum Numismatic Pricing Grid


The United States Mint recently added another page to their pricing grid for numismatic gold and platinum coins. This follows a recent situation where prices for gold coins were not reduced, even though they apparently should have been. Questions posed to the US Mint had revealed a separate internal policy, which included additional pricing criteria.

The published policy states that potential price changes are determined based primarily on the average London Fix prices from the prior Thursday AM to the current Wednesday AM. The recently revealed additional criteria take into account the Wednesday PM price to "determine the trend" and potentially overrule changes otherwise suggested by the weekly average price.

For the previous instance when the additional criteria came into play, the weekly average price was outside the current price range (suggesting a price decrease), however the Wednesday PM was still within the current range. This resulted in no change to prices.

This and six other possible permutations are now laid out in a table included as the first page of the US Mint's gold and platinum numismatic coin pricing grid.

The grid also now includes a note: "The United States Mint reserves the right to discontinue sale of gold numismatic products in the event that the selling price of United States Mint gold bullion products begin approaching the sale price of gold numismatic products."

Note the use of the word "discontinue" rather than "suspend".
Today on Coin Update News: June 2010 US Mint Bullion Sales

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43 Comments:

At July 6, 2010 at 12:15 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't get that last statement about discontinuing sales of numismatic products in the event that the sales price of bullion products approaches the sales price of numismatic products. Since the numismatic products have a much higher markup built-in, when will that scenario ever arise? Am I missing something? Any help would be appreciated.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 12:30 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

To commenter above. It would appear to me that if bullion price currently around 1200 for gold shoots up say 350 bucks in one day in the bullion market then the bullion price which would then be 1550 would exceed the mint proof gold coin which is now 1510 for the buffalo. This seems an unlikely scenerio but the mint is doing a CYA just in case due to world wide economic instability.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 12:47 PM , Blogger Michael said...

Actually, they could use the statement to discontinue numismatic gold coins if the price of gold goes up $300 or so in a one week period, since numismatic coin prices are only adjusted once per week.

While this might be unlikely, it is not inconceivable. Also the statement says "begin approaching" rather than "exceed."

Maybe this is just a case of trying to make the policy cover any and all situations, after they failed to mention the Wednesday PM directional aspect previously.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 12:48 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you, I get it now.

In that case, surely the Mint meant they would SUSPEND the sale of numismatic products in that scenario, not DISCONTINUE. In any case, at least discontinue only on a temporary basis until the market stabilizes enough to return to a weekly average pricing method (in other words, effectively a SUSPENSION of sales like what we used to have to deal with under the old pricing method.)

Also, how can they simply discontinue to sell numismatic coins that are mandated by law, such as the First Spouses?

 
At July 6, 2010 at 1:24 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is simply more of the 'change' we were all promised. Its the US Mint way of telling us they can do whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of what congress did or did not pass.... Like the Platinum proof or First spouse mintage figures... They pick random numbers.... Release dates, sales suspensions etc....

 
At July 6, 2010 at 1:26 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think The Us Mint just searches for ways to continue to piss off the numismatic community.I take this as telling the average collector to screw off because prices won't come down and if they do we can just discontinue sales til they come back up.What a joke.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 1:45 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its the government. Get used to it. They will make up rules as they go along to suit their purposes and backdate them if necessary or pull them out of some obscure policy manual. Thomas Jefferson said "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Before you vote this November know who you are voting for.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 3:42 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"transparent"? right Mr. Moy, transparent BS

 
At July 6, 2010 at 3:42 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"transparent"? right Mr. Moy, transparent BS

 
At July 6, 2010 at 6:52 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds to me like someone at the mint thinks there may be a run on gold...soon.

I wouldn't be suprised if there is a big double dipper recession around the corner that the folks in Washington are seeing that we country patriots can't begin to imagine.

Buy gold

 
At July 6, 2010 at 8:02 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

They are trying to make a profit. That is the whole point of them making and selling these coins. They are just trying to cover their asses. Short of using a system that automatically changes the price during the day, which they aren't doing for some reason, what else do you want them to do?

Say gold does spike in price $300. No matter what the stated policy is, you know they would take all gold coins off sale immediately to readjust prices. Now they have that policy in writing. You all always wanted their policy in writing, and here it is!

This *IS* transparency! This is what you have been bitching about the mint to have! Now you have it, but that isn't what you really wanted, was it? You want them to write unrealistic, strict rules so that you can try to sneak in a purchase at just the right time and game their system. They are doing what any business owner would do and you are still bitching. Well too bad, cry babies.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hear people on these blogs trying to figure out how the system works. When the mint pulls stuff out of their butt and calls it transparency then thats fine with me if they stick to it instead of coming back 6 months later and telling us of another rule thats also in play. If anyone is gaming anyone its the gooberment gaming the people.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 8:57 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the uneducated fool who wrote in at 8:02 "this is not transparency" when you keep changing the rules to your benefit. A real business with honest competition could never do this. To complain about them changing the rules constantly is not being a cry baby, and to say it is just being an ignorant self pontificating jerk that doesn't understand at all how the mint twists their rules whenever it serves their purpose. They are every bit as transparent as the previous administration was and the present administration is.

If Moy had not set a policy he said was transparent and then allowed his mint to us an in-house secret rule that no one even knew existed I'd say we should just shut up...but like everything else the mint changes it's rules constantly. And this one Moy can't even blame on Congressional mandates.

You say this is transparency, if you really believe their word means anything you are the fool. So which rule is transparent, last years, last weeks, this weeks, or next months?

Please ban me from this site and from even looking at the mints offerings. I think we are all fools for dealing with the mint at all.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 9:09 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the 8:02 blogger.

I'm wondering who you think you are talking to when you say.

"You all always wanted their policy in writing, and here it is!

This *IS* transparency! This is what you have been bitching about the mint to have! Now you have it, but that isn't what you really wanted, was it?"

You sound like a disgruntled postal cough cough US Mint worker.

The facts are that ever since the US Mint has become a business and the so called top TPGs along with there back pocket back patting authorized dealers and MINT AP scum bullion rip off dealers have raped the people of what used to be a good affordable hobby.

So you can take the "what you've been asking for transparency" excuse and put it in someone else mind that doesn't know any better.The facts are that the people are tired of the rip off scams and complete lies and unexpected displeasures dished out by all of the scum listed above.

Collectively they have all managed to ruin what once was a fun affordable hobby.And turned it into a scam running business adventure that only continues to decay the hobby as we old timers used to know it.So go blow your smoke up someone elses butt.

 
At July 6, 2010 at 9:25 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

So ummmm does anyone know if the US Mint will actually give us a mintage on the 2010 D nickels yet?

To the 9:09 blogger.

Hit the nail right on the head with that one.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 6:16 AM , Blogger Michael said...

"So ummmm does anyone know if the US Mint will actually give us a mintage on the 2010 D nickels yet?"

Production figures still haven't been updated. I think it should happen in the next few days.

I will have a post with the new numbers once they are available.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 8:33 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

When it comes to investing in gold.I for the life of me can not understand why people pay such high amounts for 22K gold coins.It is not .999 gold.It makes no sense what so ever.People pay way over spot for 22K and yet they aren't even getting a full ounce of gold.DUHHHHH!

 
At July 7, 2010 at 9:01 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"When it comes to investing in gold.I for the life of me can not understand why people pay such high amounts for 22K gold coins.It is not .999 gold.It makes no sense what so ever.People pay way over spot for 22K and yet they aren't even getting a full ounce of gold.DUHHHHH!"

Duhhh, the 22k $50 Gold Eagles have 1 total oz of gold, just as the 24k Buffalo. The total weight of the 22k Gold Eagle is 33.931 grams. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold!

 
At July 7, 2010 at 9:07 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:33 post
understand this,some 22k contain a full oz. you have to look at the full weight of the coin.Get it?

 
At July 7, 2010 at 9:35 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hee hee! DUHHHHHHH!!!!

 
At July 7, 2010 at 9:50 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

US Mint price over spot and continued raising in prices are just to high and that is why gold sales are down DUHHHH !!!

 
At July 7, 2010 at 11:09 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I figure the gold buffalo proof didn't sell that many coins this past week because of the recent dip in the gold spot price. Some folks are probably hoping the spot price below $1,200 holds long enough to trigger a price decrease next week.

Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if the average DID fall below $1,200 next week, but next Wednesday's pm fix is barely back over $1,200? Since it would fall in the present range of prices, no change would be made again. What a drag THAT would be!

 
At July 7, 2010 at 11:14 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some commenters have stated the mint imposes these rules like a business so they can continue to make money. If the mint bought a bullion blank for 1200 and sell the buffalo at 1510 how do they lose money if the price of gold suddenly spikes up. They have thousands of coins struck with bullion blanks bought at 1200 setting on their shelves to be sold at 1510. So a spike in price is not going to effect their "profit" on those coins already struck. Now they should obviously raise prices on blanks bought at higher prices. Sounds like they are running a bullion business instead of a mint.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 11:17 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am sure that nobody at the mint understands what that phrase means either. They still can't make proof silver eagles, do you think they are rocket scientists?

 
At July 7, 2010 at 11:22 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The mint has all the gold coins hedged after they buy the gold so the price of gold doesn't matter as long as they sell the coins for close to the spot price plus their outrageous premium.

If gold spiked up $300 and they sold coins at the same price they wouldn't make a penny because they have to cover their hedges at the much higher price.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 11:33 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

So the mint is really running a high class bullion business disguised as a mint.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 1:13 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

don't even buy gold from the mint. the same amount of money will get you a 1oz gold bar and 15oz of silver,unless you really like the coin.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 1:33 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the purposes of the mint is to make money on coins it issues. You all want it to be some kind of charity. They have a crappy system that reacts slowly, and they aren't fixing it. So someone decided, if they aren't fixing it, they should at least work as best as possible within those constraints. And of course, make a profit. This is how mints should work, so they can be self-sustaining without lots of handouts and subsidies. Unless of course you want more taxes to go towards supporting it. The mint should definitely be run better but come on, a lot of this bitching is just because you have delusions of buying a coin for $1500 on the day its value jumps to $3000.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 1:44 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

People are just trying to understand how the mint works. People complain because the mint has not been forthcoming in exposing their rules and policies and then spring one that no one heard of just to cover their rear ends. Lack of stability in the economy in general and metal in particular seems to be driving this. This is obvious if the mint is worried about a 300 jump in metal price and has to cover their hineys.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Our US Mint knows good and well where medal prices are heading.
That is the reason they just covered their butts with this news of yet another self helping rule.The US Mint and the Fed like to think they run the show on metal price fixing.The sad thing is the fact that they are spitting out so many dollars that it is inevitable that the medals will go up.

The world will not stand for the US Mint/Fed to keep producing dollars and not call it devaluation.Therefore,the only thing that can equalize monetary values world wide is the international language of precious metals.

Ever since the FDR days and the gold standard kill of the Nixon days.This country has lived a lie and created incomprehensible debt.Now the world is speaking out and you will soon see no choice but to have precious medals rise to the values that correspond with real time dollar values.

The only thing I truly fear is what FDR did to confiscate the US Gold holdings and make owning gold or silver illegal to possess.In the act of a true depression. History shows that this can become a reality.The only difference is that people will fight it this time because of the continued show of lies and deceit by the US Mint and Fed.

The Government more then anyone will try to drive prices down on gold and silver just before a buy back demand law.So it is in their best interest at any point and time to make sure price fixing works in their favor.

The sad fact is that they have created so much debt with paper money printing. That the world who we owe will not allow the price decrease to happen.Kind of a catch 22 for the fat happy politician price fixing suckers.The ole "what comes around goes around" has bit them in a azz this time.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I ordered my 2010 buffalo I askked the girl taking the order if it was a new coin...I told her our concern about the idea that the mint was selling returned coins to collectors. She said she didn't think they did that...she said she bought coins too and would be really ticked off if her purchases weren't first editions...
When I asked her to verify that the mint wasn't reselling returned gold coins she said she couldn't say for sure that this wasn't happening. Even her supervisor could't say for sure.
She told me to call the main office... I haven't had time to do that thus far, but may be able to follow up next week...

Goldfingers

 
At July 7, 2010 at 5:27 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well when the gov't made gold illegal there were plenty of people burying them in the backyard for there are many double eagles,liberty heads, etc.still around. I only hope the price of precious falls so we can afford the second platinum eagle of the series.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 6:50 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't believe for one MINUTE that the Mint does not ship returned coins for future orders. Think about it: They are NOT going to melt down every coin that is returned simply because the first collector they shipped it to found fault with it. It would be MUCH cheaper in the long run to deal with the same coin being returned several times before finally finding someone who will keep it than it would be to make new ones for every return.

Unless the damage is EXTREMELY bad and should have been caught by quality control in the first-place, returned coins are undoubtedly re-shipped. I would wager on it.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Goldfingers,

I strongly believe (although I don’t definitively know) the Mint does indeed resell returned coins as new. In 2009 I bought two Gold Buffalo coins from the Mint. The first coin was beautiful and I kept it. The second coin was sub-standard and I returned it for an exchange. I believe I got a previous returned coin as an exchange. The evidence I have is weak, the coin appeared to be repackaged and it would grade as a PF 69 although I don’t think anyone would recognize that fact without looking at the coin under magnification.

In 2010 I ordered three 2010 Gold Buffalo coins ten minutes after they became available for purchase. I got one beautiful 2010 Buffalo that graded as a PF 70 and two 2009 Gold Buffalo coins that were obviously last year’s rejects! (Yes, I am that guy and I am still waiting for the credit to show up on my credit card).

How could this have happened unless rejected coins were physically store with new coins? I think this is pretty strong circumstantial evidence that rejected coins are not being segregated but instead are being resold as new.

Think about the cost to the Mint not to dump these coins back onto the public. Do you really believe they segregate the coins to melt down for new blanks? I don’t think so. Now, I appreciate the fact that I can return coins so I can live with this but here is my take away: If you reject a coin ask for a refund not an exchange and buy your coins early in the purchasing cycle before sub-standard coins can be returned. This should minimize your likelihood of getting someone else’s rejects.

I believe that the fact that I got 2009 coins was an anomaly; the fact that I got returned coins was not.

 
At July 7, 2010 at 9:12 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

What ever happened to "IN GOD WE TRUST" It seems any more that the devil is running the work shop.Where did the honesty and reliance go.When will these self righteous fools running the show see that the public is no longer happy.Must there always be an angle in everything they do.Is honesty and integrity just not in the cards for coins any more.

What the hey,It's always been a racket anyway.Might as well just drive it into the ground until it's worthless.The US Mint can't and won't get it right either way anyone looks at it.The facts are that coins are fast becoming known as nothing but a scam.

How bout that 2010 D nickel mintage.Something is obviously strange about this mystery.Only two sellers in Cali had the Ds.Two sellers in and around DC had the Ps with Puerto Rico claiming to conveniently have the first P cents and P nickels.Yet Moy says they only give out random any year orders to who ever needs them.COUGH COUGH BULL CHIT.

All I can say is that I'm over it all.They can't even get out a simple nickel mintage report because the set up scams have to maximize profits first.Time to just get out and let the dishonest suckers run it the rest of the way into hell."IN GOD WE TRUST" Yeah RIGHT!!!

 
At July 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just saw an article about some language slipped into the healhcare bill that was just noticed. Starting 1/1/2012, and sale or purchase of precious metal over the amount of $600 will require the completion of a 1099. Hmmm, so will the US Mint complete a 1099 on every sale over $600 it makes too? Here is the link...http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=11843

 
At July 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM , Blogger Lasloo said...

Just went to the Mint website and looked at what they list as the current coin production for 2010:

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/coin_production/index.cfm?action=production_figures&allCoinsYear=2010#starthere

So, in this report, it lists 2010 D nickels!

36.24 Million

So, if it stays at that level... its less than last years mintage and the lowest since the late 50s.

 
At July 8, 2010 at 10:39 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the mint has to fill out a form I am confident there will be a charge for it either up front or hidden. If they get some kind of automated reporting it could be as little as 5 bucks but might be higher maybe up to 20 especially if they have to do a paper form and send the buyer a copy also. They might also just jack up the price of all coins a few percent to cover it and no one knows the difference.

 
At July 8, 2010 at 11:38 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think that provision applies to the Mint. It's not meant for businesses who sell precious metals coins to collectors or investors. It's meant to make it harder for individuals who later sell those coins and don't report their capital gains tax, since the IRS will be provided with 1099's showing how much the sellers received. That way if the income is not reported it may trigger an audit to collect the tax. If that happens, the sellers will WISH they had paid it up front, since penalties and interest will apply. If the unreported income is too high, there might even be some prison time involved!

The Mint won't have to record any additional paperwork when selling coins, but those who later sell the coins they've bought from the Mint or anyplace else are supposed to receive a 1099 from those they are selling to if it's over $600. The Mint does not buy coins from individuals, hence no 1099's from them. But independent coin dealers who buy coins from individuals will be required to give the 1099's to the sellers when paying them more than $600. Technically, the dealers should record a name and SS# for each purchase they make during the year, and if the sum of multiple purchases throughout the year from the same individual totals more than $600, they should receive a 1099 for the grand total. Some may try to get around it by keeping sales to dealers under $600 at a time, but that will basically be impossible with gold and platinum coins due to the high prices.

I pay my capital gains tax on any coin sales I make willingly, so the new provision won't effect me except to provide documentation that the numbers I'm reporting on my 1040 are indeed true. It's definitely best to pay your taxes on all income and keep everything with the IRS even! That way if your number ever pops up for a random audit, you'll have nothing to hide.

 
At July 8, 2010 at 3:07 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, theres some good news. No additional forms from the mint and no additional charges (for forms anyway). Nice to get some positive info.

 
At July 8, 2010 at 9:03 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Lasloo,

I think you should go out and buy as many of those 2010 D nickels as you can.That way when the Mint screws everyone with the total mintage in the next month.You can sit there and say you should have never bought that clad crap so early.Good luck with that adventure.I'm sure the Fed scratched backs in Cali are fat and happy now.This whole notion of the coins just showing up in random dates in the place that ordered them first like Moy politically suggested is a bunch of covered up bull crap if you ask my opinion.The Fed has friend in low places.That you can bet on.

 
At July 9, 2010 at 7:32 AM , Anonymous JA said...

I'm just perplexed as to why the mint continues to not care about the average collector.

I'm unhappy and I'm showing it with my wallet.

I cancelled all my subscriptions and I haven't bought a single product in months.

 
At July 12, 2010 at 10:16 PM , Anonymous Dis Gruntled said...

Me too - cancelled everything, and I had 6 or 7 subscriptions. Ironically, the only ones I kept are the ones they no longer make: proof and unc SAEs.

 

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