ATB Silver Bullion Coins Delayed
As just reported on Coin Update News, the US Mint has delayed the release of the America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins. The move comes in response concerns expressed by many consumers about the high premiums being charged for the new 5 ounce silver bullion series.
The US Mint is now evaluating reports and collecting information to assess the appropriate course of action.
Over the weekend, one of the US Mint's primary distributors began accepting orders for complete 5 coin sets, priced at $1,395 each. The 1,000 sets that were offered sold out in less than 24 hours.
The pricing for the set represented a premium of about $130 above the market value of the silver content. As a primary distributor, this dealer was allowed to purchase the coins directly from the Mint for $9.75 above the silver value.
The US Mint utilizes the authorized purchaser network since it is believed to be the most effective and efficient manner to distribute the bullion coins to the public. Specifically, the Mint seeks to ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible;By creating a bullion coin with a minuscule mintage of 33,000 units per issue, the system broke down.
B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and
C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Congress put the US Mint in a difficult situation by mandating a new bullion coin program with complicated specifications at a time when they could not keep up with demand for existing programs. The US Mint put their primary distributors in a difficult situation by asking that they distribute instant rarities at reasonable premiums. The end consumer was faced with a choice of paying a high premium for a government product distributed through a privileged system, or opting out.
I am curious to see how the US Mint will handle the program at this point. If they really want "to ensure the widest possible availability, accessibility and affordability of these coins", the most logical choice would be to distribute the coins directly to the public in a manner similar to numismatic products.
The problem is that this option does not seem to be available under the authorizing legislation, which calls for the bullion coins to be distributed by "authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins" or the National Park service. The NPS has oddly expressed no interest in buying the coins for resale, as provided under law.
Another option would be to produce the bullion coins in the kind of quantity that bullion coins should be produced. This would eliminate the rarity factor and make the coins primarily bullion.
This might happen for years 2011 onward, but for the current year, the option is probably unfeasible. The US Mint must have hit a production or supply bottleneck that only allows the limited production already indicated.
Labels: America the Beautiful Quarters
posted by Mint News Blog @ 3:20 PM
218 Comments:
The US Mint has probably re-tooled equipment to follow the new standards for the coins that will be coming into law next year (no edge lettering, only need to be the "likeness" of quarters, etc.). Therefore, I would think they are done with producing anymore coins for this year. Besides they would have to strike them and get them distributed by yearend which is also unlikely.
I hate the precedent, but they should allow more 2010s minted into 2011 until they have at least double the number of coins or sell them to the distributors at a $100 a coin premium. Apmex should have waited until they were in hand to sell them. They really messed up.
This is a royal mess, the only feasible option is just to follow through on the original distribution plan mandated by law. Trying to change the law or suddenly interpret it differently now will only anger even more people. How many times can one coin be distributed and sold?
Agreed, selling the coins before they had them may put them in a legal bind. Although, the Mint is in a legal bind too if they try to stop shipment.
Sales on "The Bay" have actually increased. There have been at least 5 sales in the last hour or so. People think they can get these coins when no one actually has them!!
This kind of greed is why this country is in the mess it is in.
I agree it'll be interesting, or at least telling. Unfortunately, I would expect nothing more than a letter of rebuke to APMEX and no price changes and no distribution other than what has already been announced.
The Mint should have never announced the mintage of the bullion version. That was like pouring gasoline on a campfire.
And whoever is running the National Park Service needs to have their head examined. No interest. Really? Wow!
No...sakes on ebay have been decreasing from about 48 earlier today to 27 now 7:36 pm est. Several auctions were simple closed by the seller.
I'm interested to see what happens though.
I bought 3 sets from APMEX on Saturday after I sold 2 in a pre-sale on ebay.
So....I've been paid for 2 sets and APMEX has charged my CC for the 3 sets.
The NPS could ride in to the rescue. It could be the only out the Mint has. They have to sell them through the bullion distribution they are legally obligated to. They could withhold from Apmex until Apmex agrees to lower the price to those with reservations though.
To December 6, 2010 4:40 PM
Wow, that stinks. That's a bad position to be in because you know someone will leave bad feedback on you as a seller. I am not being a smarta$$ either because I was almost in your shoes. I bought 2 and was going to resell one, but thought I would wait a day or two. I could easily be in your shoes. Not sure who screwed up more, Apmex, the Mint or Congress. Heck, maybe add the NPS now too.
No, I'm not worried about bad feedback. If I can't deliver the coins I sold on ebay, I will give a full refund...I'm obligated to do that.
Then I'll deal with APMEX.
Confucious say man who fly plane upside down have crack up.
Circus Madness. I'm done following this story and the coins.
The Mint has a flawed system and it just made matters worse. At this point neither the APs nor customers can receive product in an efficient manner. They change the rules all the time. There is zero accountability at the mint.
This whole fiasco is just going to create more of a frenzy for these coins no matter what the mint does. This story has now gone mainstream with an atricle in the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704156304576003931976247962.html
There are sets that have sold "Buy It Now" on eBay for over $1900 this afternoon, but at this point who knows if the sellers will even be able to deliver. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out. What a mess!
I'm happier with Edmund Moy right now than I have ever been!
Now, he just needs to really stick it to APMEX and the other AP's to ensure that these coins are not overpriced again!
Bigger picture though, it's time to get a free market going for bullion anyway, the laws need to be updated. Just make all bullion available from the mint website, and place some ordering minumums and such to ensure it is still cost effective, but available to the smaller fish.
Also, I wonder if APMEX thinks selling out their entire brand value over $100,000 was a good idea? Seems very stupid to me.
agree
To be fair, APMEX should have sold the coins for no more than $179 each, not $279 each. They had to pay around $160 per coin at the market rate plus premium.
At $100 extra per coin or $500 extra per set more than they should have sold them for, that was an extra $500,000 they made on them in a mere 19 hours.
I for one did not ultimately mind paying the extra $500 per set, even though I would have rather had that profit to keep for myself. I can still make money on them at what I paid, but obviously not as much.
You can't really blame APMEX for wanting a piece of the action, but it is frustrating. Put yourself in their shoes. You're given a sure-fire hot item and told to basically give all your profit potential away for a song. Granted, that's what they're supposed to do as an "authorized purchaser", but it's kind of like asking the wolf to guard the hen house.
I've thought about it from Apmex's perspective. I would have made the coins available at a low premium, and limited them to one set, or even one coin, per customer.
They would forgo the maximum immediate profit, but gain long term goodwill and likely win new customers from those who were grateful to be offered the coins from a primary distributor at a reasonable price.
And besides, not all primary distributors deal directly with the public, so they should have realized that their pricing decisions would be in the public spotlight.
Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.
The price of being one of the chosen few primary dealers with monopolistic access to US mint bullion products is to help the mint accomplish their mandate of distributing these products to as many people as affordably as possible. This gives primary dealers the opportunity to make a low margin of profit on a very high volume of sales. APMEX got too greedy and violated the letter and spirit of their distribution agreement with the mint. They should lose their primary dealership status. They have lost my business forever. I hope the mint gets permission from Congress to distribute the ATB bullion themselves with a household ordering limit of one.
The key phrase there is "not all primary distributors deal directly with the public". APMEX was the first and only AP that was willing to sell to the individual consumer and they did so at prices less than what other dealers paid.
"I hope the mint gets permission from Congress to distribute the ATB bullion themselves with a household ordering limit of one."
The Mint tried to get Congress to change the specs of the coin and look how long that took (in fact, it still hasn't officially happened)! There is no way congress changes anything for the distribution this year.
Making APMEX sell their allocation at a fair markup will do nothing for the other 30,000 sets in play. Those will be sold to the public by second-tier distributors who can price-gouge as much as they want. The Mint doesn't have enough control to make sure all these coins are distributed at a fair price.
APMEX has lost my business too.
"APMEX was the first and only AP that was willing to sell to the individual consumer and they did so at prices less than what other dealers paid."
I'm sure they thought they were doing the right thing. As I've said in the post, the process was flawed the whole way through.
They were put in a tough situation, but they could have taken the high road and come out clean.
I believe the Mint can only withhold the coins from Apmex until the "reasonable" test is met. If Apmex refuses to move the price the Mint could refuse to ship them and kick them out as an AP. The likely result will be Apmex agrees to sell the coins at a "reasonable" price and will change the price to the buyers that have already purchased the coins. In the end the people that bought for 1395 will get them for less. Ironically, the next purchaser will now pay even more than before because of the press and exposure this has given the coins. In the end the only ones that win will be those that were willing to pay more anyway. Ironic, comical and pathetic all at the same time. How do you like Moy now?
Just got this email...
Today, we received the following notice from the United States Mint…
"The United States Mint issued a press release on December 1, 2010, announcing the December 6, 2010, availability of the 2010 America the Beautiful Ounce Silver Bullion Coins through the established network of Authorized Purchasers who, in turn, would make them available on the secondary market. Due to the limited availability of the 2010 America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin coins, public anticipation has been extremely strong. Since the press release was issued, the United States Mint has received numerous calls and inquiries from the public regarding premiums being charged for these coins. As a result, we are delaying the launch of this program. No America the Beautiful Ounce Silver Bullion Coins orders will be confirmed today."
You are receiving this notice because you have an existing order with this item in it. We ask the following:
1. Since you have placed an order with APMEX for these coins, we will honor our orders providing the US Mint makes these coins available to us. Should the mint change their method of distribution (Not selling to Authorized Purchasers) and do not provide coins to us, we will have no choice but to cancel the order and provide a full refund.
2. If you would like to cancel your order, you are welcome to reply to this email and let us know.
a. If you have selected to pay by credit card, we will be happy to credit your card back.
b. If you have mailed in your check, please let us know and we will return your payment.
3. If you would like to keep your order, there is nothing you have to do. We will let you know when we have more information.
We apologize for this issue and wish there was something more we could do at this point. The US Mint has created a fantastic product. However, because of the complexity of manufacturing the coin and the available time during the 2010 year to produce the coins, the mintage (33,000 each) is more like a numismatic rarity than a bullion coin. We will continue to keep you informed.
Apmex just sent me an email regarding the delay. If they don't get the coins, I'll get a refund.
They gave me 2 options.
1. Cancel order and receive refund.
2. Do nothing & they will honor the sale at $1395 when they receive the coins.
BUT...what they didn't address is what happens if they are "mandated" to sell the coins at a lower price....what happens then?
"Since you have placed an order with APMEX for these coins, we will honor our orders providing the US Mint makes these coins available to us."
How nice of them. If gold or silver dropped precipitously, would you still be required to honor your order with them?
My disagreement is with the system in general. We have become too accustomed to perceived rarities, amplified by the internet, and then the media, and finally TPGs (Note: PCGS HYPE such as the utter FALSEHOOD of "First Strike"). So now the premium is added up front and instant rarities are CREATED. APMEX was just playing the game to make a quick buck. Perhaps we should also identify the rich and gullible who part with big and possibly hard earned money to satisfy whim at every level.
Says the anonymous poster.
APMEX is no full of crap... APMEX is a bullion dealer, they apparently don't understand what their job is!
Their job is to get bullion in the hands of the public at fair prices... it is against their agreement with the Mint to start their initial pricing of ANY NEW BULLION at a 100% markup... I can't believe they don't know that!
If they want to sell these coins for a fair price initially, then get some themselves on the market and sell the following rounds of coins for 100% markups - that's fair.... but their job is to give fair pricing on the initial round!
I can't believe they want to blame the Mint for them breaking their agreement and price gouging!
APMEX has got to have some these things on hand. My ship date was Dec 8 for my 1 set. My order status is checked into Vault B. WTF does this mean. All I know is I want my coins. I paid for them.
Email or no email. I want my coins.
Guess what. The mint can sell these coins for $5 dollars. Unless supply is increased. It is not going to change the demand and therefore the market price.
Pandora's Box has been opened. It is a little late to play cath up.
I thought it was hilarioud when I saw a quote from a dufus that works for APMEX, he said their reason for price gougin on these was because "we have bills to pay"... it's funny that a multimillion dollar corporation says that during the Underwhelming Recovery right after the Great Recession, because I HAVE FRIGGIN BILLS TO PAY TOO, SO WHY DON'T YOU STOP TRYING TO RIP ME OFF FOR $500 ON THESE... ok?
Here we have a bullion coin that has turned into a numismatic item due to its high demand relative to production. Maybe the mint should just hold them and put them up for sale on their web around 200 bucks per coin with a maximum of one or two coins per household. See how that goes. Adjust the purchase number per household upward if necessary. Then the market could take over in assembling the sets. Lets try to help the mint and put some ideas out there to consider.
It might not be too late for APMEX to offer the buyers of the 1000 sets a refund of the high premium, say maybe $90 per coin. That would still allow them to make a decent profit on them themselves, and recover some goodwill. It would definitely be better for them to do it themselves instead of having the Mint step in and withhold the coins from them. If they agree to do that, maybe the Mint will go ahead and release the coins to them.
The Park Service should give them away at the parks when you buy a life time pass.
It doesn't matter what happens now. These will sell for over $1400 a set on any secondary market. I'm telling you right now that this was completely orchastrated. I can't believe the amount of chatter on all the blogs. PCGS blog has over 700 entries now. This couldn't have turned out better for the US Mint seeing as how they still have 10 years to go with this series. So much FREE publicity its crazy. This did not happen by accident. When there is this kind of money being made and the price of silver is at 30 year highs....it all makes sense. Brilliant.
Let me explain how a REAL Mint Director would have handled this entire situation.
One - when they figured out they couldn't get the processing down for most of 2010, gone to the Congressman who sponsored the law and asked for a delay in the program.
Two - if the Congressman wouldn't play ball, don't split the mintage into bullion and numismatic and only produce the legally required bullion.
Why can't the Mint do those two simple things???
One - because Moy has showed zero leadership or initiative in his term as Director
Two - because Moy is a greedy dude. He can only charge $8 markup on a $150 coin under bullion standards, but can charge a $75 markup on a $150 coin under numismatic standards.
I'm with 6:39. Refund some of the money make good on the coins and make everyone happy. Especially me who bought a set. That would be FANTASTIC!!
This is yet another example how the Federal Government cannot run much of anything. And we wonder why citizens question/fear a huge program like Obamacare. The US Mint cannot even manage a simple sale of some coins!
A suspect a price break from Apmex may be forthcoming, but who will be driving that behind the scenes will only be known by a select few. The politics and intrigue over this coin could make it a legend and forever in high demand. People love a good story behind a coin.
I love their email - "more of a numismatic rarity than a bullion coin." No. That would be an opinion. According to the law, it's bullion. According to their agreement with the Mint, they're supposed to treat it like bullion.
And "bills to pay??" Please!! The first thousand sets are going to be a Just in Time Delivery with a FIFO redistribution to the customers. If these sets spend more than 36 hours on a shelf, I'll be surprised. The bigger part of those additional costs will be covered in their $66 S&H costs.
So, I don't see any new or special legislation happening in the next 24 calendar days. The lame-duck Congress has to deal with issues that are much bigger and more important than the fate of 165,000 bullion coins.
Since Mr. Moy probably can't get the laws changed, he will have to work within the current law. At this point, I see the Mint being left with two options within the current laws and the AP Network:
1) Move forward as is, accepting that the Mint missed the mark, again, and their AP's will reap major benefits at the expense of the public.
2) Hold all of their AP's accountable to the terms and conditions of their agreements by dictating a maximum, reasonable margin. Given the current market for Bullion Coins, I had predicted $185, certainly no more than $200 per coin.
Going to be a long 24 days!!
Option #3. Scrap the bullion program for 2010 and melt those 33k of each variety already produced.
Wouldn't $999 dollars for the set be a reasonable and attractive price? Almost a 35% instant profit for the AP's. Right now I'd be happy to pay that.
If they were melted, then EVERYONE would lose. Plus, who would want to buy the bullion coins in later years if there was no possibility of ever having a complete set of all 56 designs?
I was still wondering if the Mint planned to change the coin specs in later years, since it was later allowed in the law for them to do so? Hopefully they will keep the specs with the edge-lettering intact during the entire program, so all of the coins will match. It would look funny for the first year to be bigger around and have edge-lettering, while the other years are smaller with no edge-lettering.
I like the nuclear option, where nobody gets anything yet. They can ask congress to let them produce more in 2011 before releasing them.
The presidential coins don't all have edge lettering.
Scrapping the program is not an option. Goes back to the Legislation.
However, the Mint could scrap the Numismatic versions. Commit those additional resources to the first year of the bullion program, increasing the populations to 60,000 per issue. Still a key date with just a little less demand. Unfortunately, nixing the Numismatic coins cuts what would be a huge profit machine for the Mint.
I think the mint should sub them out to China. Let China make a
sh!t full, and sell them to us at 29 cents per set.
Adding in the numismatic versions and calling them bullion won't work. The numismatic version has the P mint mark and are likely mostly struck. The additional coins probably wouldn't drive the price down as now there is huge interest in these with all the newfound press.
The law says "The Secretary shall strike and make available for sale such number of bullion coins as the Secretary determines to be appropriate"
Is there any reason why he couldn't decide zero coins are appropriate? It isn't like they haven't made that decision before (2009 Silver Eagle proofs).
"Option #3. Scrap the bullion program for 2010 and melt those 33k of each variety already produced."
Hey BigE,
Let's not talk nonsense. Some people paid their money. We want our coins. If APEX wants to give me $$$ back that is their business with me.
To all those who either thought they were too expensive or were afraid to jump in at that price point. Thanks! Your lack of motivation has payed off this time.
The mint's decision to withhold the coins today has really just fueled the fire for the price to skyrocket on these by the time they come to market for the average collector. The APs will just sell the remainder of the coins to other dealers who will mark them way up. In the end the collectors that bought from apmex will be the ones that get the lowest price, and yet Apmex will come out with a black eye. Next time there is a rare coin like this, you can be sure that the APs will never sell directly to the public again and will only sell them to other dealers who will mark them up with no recourse.
So correct me if I am wrong -
(5) bullion coins @ 5 ounces each = 25 ounces
(25) ounces @ $30.00 per ounces Silver = $750.00
Now, your article states that the US Mint is selling the bullion coins @ $9.75 above the Silver Value.
Ok, well @ $1,000.00 for the set, that is $9.75 PER OUNCE above Silver Price. This means that the US MINT is making $250.00 PER SET SOLD or 25% Profit Margin.
Soooo, based on the $1,395.00 that the "retailers" are pre-selling the bullion coins they are making $395.00 Per Set or 28.3% Profit Margin.
Sooo, I guess all the "retailers" need to do is lower their price to $1,333.33 which is of course 25% Profit Margin matching the SAME MARGIN as the US MINT ????
For those of you complaining, GET OVER IT !!! 90% of everything you buy everyday have higher profit margins than coins !!!!
In response to that, most likely they won't get another opportunity to sell a rare coin that they bought for bullion prices. So I don't give a crap.
They didn't do their job, and violated their agreement with the mint. If anything you should be mad at *them*, not anybody else. It is *their* fault they did wrong, not other people, not the mint.
Oh boo hoo, they "could have" made more money. I don't care. They violated their agreement. They acted unethically. They lost perspective. No matter what they did, even without price gouging and charging reasonable premiums, they would still have made tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for doing practically NOTHING. They are the lucky few recipients of a rare, desired product. All they have to do is receive the product, mark up the price, and sell it. They just got GREEDY.
Although it is too late and would take too much time to develop... the fairest way to handle this would have been to sell them by sets by LOTTERY.
I think that they sold it for $9.75 per coin over the silver value, not per ounce.
9.75 per coin not per ounce, but in principle your correct, a lot of items sold to the public are marked up far more than coins.
Yep it was definitely $9.75 per coin, so your calculations are more than a little off.
And so how many times do you need to hear this?
BOYCOTT the Mint, and spend your money where its treated best! I have said this same thing over & over within almost every blog subject recently because it fits.
Early last year I predicted that the Mint was out of control, improperly managed, and insulting their numismatic customer base with offers of outrageously priced JUNK. Their products are now considered to be low class JUNK almost universally. That is a crying shame. Our American Mint has become the laughing stock poster child almongst the world's other mints.
This latest abortion foisted on the public has a foul stench and it the latest in a long list of obscene actions. No one in authority seems aware, or cares. I am ashamed of our Mint. After almost 50 years of support, I can no longer stomach the ineptitude. ~Grandpa
Funny. Some guy has the five ATB coins on ebay with a buy it now price of over $800,000. Gotta read the verbiage in the listing. Its a hoot.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-America-Beautiful-5-ounce-5-coin-Silver-set-/290509513832?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item43a3b76468
It would appear that there is solid basis for a class action lawsuit. I wonder what the frontend legal costs might total to file and support. Any attornies on this blog? It has to start someplace, sometime, or this crap will continue on forever.
I'm sorry but I applaud the mint and their actions right now. I have knocked them in the past. But...this is a Congressional Mandate, they set the rules, and the timeline. The mint like so many of us got pummeled by Congressional dictates. In hindsight could the mint have seen it coming. Maybe, I don't know, but they simply ran out of time. Do what's right by the average collector that truly wants to collect these coins Mr. Moy. This is your chance. To hell with the greedy flippers and distributors.
Grandpa I told you to stop saying bad thing about the US Mint. Now I will not be giving you these 5 ounce silver coins for Christmas.
Signed, Grandma
Don't tell me what to do Mr. Grandpa wannabe. Please boycott the mint if you want to. I for one am proud of my purchases of "junk" like "08 Eagles and Buffs, "09 UHR and Plat PF, and yes, these cookies from the Mint through APMEX too. Now Mint/APMEX please ship the darn coins !!!
Anon December 6, 2010 8:21 PM..That's a perfect item description if there ever was one!!
Well it sucks what the mint did but what do you expect. My main gripe was not the markup but the fact that they forced you to buy all 5 of them at that markup. This is bad for no other reason then it is bullion. How does bullion get sold as a set? Has anyone ever heard of a bullion set? APMEX got greedy and they got burned for it, but for those that want to punish APMEX they did sell it less than the other APs and directly to the public
I just want my coins for the price I paid for them. I would imagine everyone else who bought from APMEX feels the same way. The Mint is just punishing
US with this delay.
The mint didn't make anyone buy them by the set. From what I've read not all distributors did this either. APMEX did.
Punishing Us? I don't think so. They are trying to correct a wrong. Yes I paid for mine from APMEX and hope I get them, but can wait if a more fair system can be forced on the distributors for the benefit of the collectors.
No...sakes on ebay have been decreasing from about 48 earlier today to 27 now 7:36 pm est. Several auctions were simple closed by the seller.
I'm interested to see what happens though.
I bought 3 sets from APMEX on Saturday after I sold 2 in a pre-sale on ebay.
So....I've been paid for 2 sets and APMEX has charged my CC for the 3 sets..............
You should have never done a Pre-Sale unless the merchandise is in your hand...E-Bay is Sale Place not a pre-sale..I hope you get a Bad Rep.....!!
I wouldn't mind a refund of some type, or the option to get more coins at no extra charge. However, I did agree to buy the coins at the original offering price and have already sent my money in for them. I've been waiting for these for months, and I really don't want to wait any longer while the the Mint and AP's duke this out. Release the coins, and if we're entitled to get a refund later that would be great.
We took the plunge and we want our coins!
Anyone elses wife just yell at them for ignoring the family and blogging for 48 hours straight?
"The mint didn't make anyone buy them by the set. From what I've read not all distributors did this either. APMEX did."
Can someone name another AP that sells directly to the public? If not it is irrelevant what the other APs did or did not do as they could have sold them to their cousin's brother's and had them marked up from there, even if they were scrupulous the next link in the chain could gouge me just as bad if not worst than APMEX.I can only see what APMEX did not the other APs and what they did was sell bullion items as a collector set.
9:10,
Hee hee! :)
The Mint forcing APMEX to lower the price will only affect the 3000 sets allocated to APMEX. There are 30,000 sets allocated to APs who don't sell to the public. They sell to 2nd-tier distributors who can price these anyway they want. So all you do is move the windfall profit-taking from APMEX to these 2nd-tier distributors. You need to come up with a better solution that makes all of the coasters affordable to the public.
There is no fair fix for any of this. I say let this years 5 oz coins remain unfair and fix it all next year. There had to be a key date at some point in the series anyway. Might as well be now.
That big ole silver park biscuit sure will be tough to eat if silver dumps. Has anyone even seen one yet. They may even be one of the biggest ugliest mistake ridden coins the mint has produced in years.
On the other hand perhaps the price of silver will go to $55.80 an ounce and buyers will break even at the cost of $1395.00 a set. The one thing I know for sure is the fact that the US Mint is in a bind to produce a product and save face for doing it in a manner that puts no black marks on it's already suffering in quality 2010 series of any coins.
IMO I believe the whole scenario has been a freak show that no longer looks like numismatic interest more so then profitability interests. I hope all the gougers get stuck with butt ugly coins that end up being a nightmare for their impending greed. I'm just glad to say I'm happy to sit this one out.
Here is a great idea. Why don't the big silver Dogs stop holding down silver prices long enough to make everyone think they are getting a great deal. Yeah Yeah That's the ticket. What a joke true collecting has become.
These are merely no different then many world mint 5 oz bullion coins. The only difference is that other world Mints have been doing this for years with low mintage and not all the crying and delays of how difficult the process is.
I see every bit of this hype in the air as being a way to justify greed. All the flippers crying all the way up to the Mint is looking worse and worse in the end. You may want to look at the total facts here. Unless you want this in a Numismatics over priced way. You will have to wait until silver hits 75.00 an ounce before you will feel happy about your purchase of these sets being sold by APS. Because that is less then 25% profit unlike the 100% profit the APs suck out of the starting gates. Good luck ever seeing that one pan out for you.
Some people just don't see the bottom line and where to draw the limits. They would rather go the JG Wintworth way and " Want it now". The Decision is very simple for me. If I can't buy it from the US Mint at a reasonable cost. I won't buy it. This is the reason I haven't bought from the US Mint for many years now.
Good luck with this one folks.
One of the online dealers traders told me their plan was to sell the set for $1329.95 and they are not even an authorized purchaser meaning they bought these from them and yet they were pricing them lower than APMEX.
What does everyone say about that? This dealer was eveen going to place a 1 per household limit on orders because they only had 50 sets available.
Go Mint!
Ed Moy: Have some Chutzpa: MELT THEM ALL!
"You should have never done a Pre-Sale unless the merchandise is in your hand...E-Bay is Sale Place not a pre-sale..I hope you get a Bad Rep.....!!"
The same could be said of APMEX
Great point!!
those people who ordered before should be very happy about mint decision to delay. it's better to cancel the order. cause you might lose big money in the future.
APMEX is going to fall for this one. I bought some of my silver order from them, but now, I'll buy from other non AP dealer instead. They really show their true face this time. I hope that all the people that buy silver stand up and not buy from APMEX. This will show them that they can't get away with this greed. The are just like Kitco, and they should get the same treatment. APMEX, YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS!!!!!!
I am disappointed that APMEX decided to sell the first 1,000 coins BEFORE the advertised selling date of December 6. If the Mint told collectors they will go on sale on December 6, then APMEX should not have engaged in a “promised delivery” sale before that date. A pre-order sale would have been ok, as then the current situation would be easier to address. I agree with the Mint’s decision to suspend delivery of the coins. No ill will to those that were fortunate enough to order the coins early, but the transaction should be viewed as invalid. I wish I had an equitable solution for all, but none exists. At this point, I would probably like to see the Mint sell these on Amazon or similar online retailer at a fixed price with a one set per household limit. Hold off on the sale of these coins until the law can be revised, even if it takes a year. Maybe pair up the bullion and collector coins and sell them through the Mint. Screw the traditional distribution network on this one.
Funny but the 2006 20th anniversary silver eagle 3 coin sets sets are less than $10 away from melt value. The 2008 proof eagles are less than a few dollars vs melt. The 2005 Christmas ($5 paid)silver bars greetings are now worth $30!!! That was the time to buy-- all the hype on these atb rounds is way out of line. I'd rather buy silver proof eagles 2010 than these. KNOWING WHEN TO GET IN and alot of luck makes one healthy wealthy and wise!! al in OH
The 2010 ATB 5 coin PR sets are looking pretty reasonable now, same with the silver PF set--close to melt. Wonder when the mint will show it's true colors and suddenly "out of stock" or "on backorder" appears on the site.
Unless they really do sell out--cause I'm in for some today, are you ??
Cheers to the Mint for stepping in and listening to the collectors' complaints!
Now I hope they cancel all the APMEX orders and sell them through a different method or establish a ceiling for the markups.
Quite a few people are making the assumption that these coins would have been cheaper through retailer had all the AP's wholesaled them out. What do you base that on? APMEX didn't pull $1395 out of their backside. They were seeing what the wholesalers were willing to pay. APMEX's mistake was making them available to the public. Had they went through their dealer network, you would not have know what they were charging. What price did the other 10 distributors sell their sets for?
If you think you will be getting a set for less than $1395 you are dreaming. The Mint will not sell these through their website - they cannot. They will be sold to the APs who will sell them to distributors who will sell them at retail - and they will be $1750. The demand isn't going to disappear and 100,000 more sets are going to suddenly appear.
John
*make that aren't...
John
Why do you want to hurt those who bought from APMEX despite the high premium? There are still 32,000 sets out there that APMEX did not sell.
The 1,000 sets sold by APMEX should be allowed to go through as planned. They didn't force anyone to buy them for $1,395. There's no sense in wishing that everyone who bought the first 1,000 sets at APMEX not get their coins.
Is there a feeling in the air of a true Christmas feeling. Fellow man is now looking into being nice to each other and giving these coins at cost and no gouging for profit. There is a company who just went on with the US Mint recently who is offering these coins at cost to all who join them in a joint effort to open a stock market ordering company that also allows the ordering of physical gold and silver at 7.99 per purchase over US Mint price. ROFLMAO Then I woke up and said DAMN !!! it was only a dream. LOL
John, you are right, in retrospect APMEX made the mistake of giving the public a chance at purchasing them for less than they would have otherwise have gotten them. Now, APMEX and those customers are being punished. With all the hoopla now, the small guy will NEVER be able to get them for less than 1395. It's a shame. The people that are complaining and calling more attention to this are only making it harder and more expensive to obtain them.
I don't agree. Apmex may have give some of us a chance, but with 2,000 more to slab or sell as they see fit they have exposed just how corupt and unfair the system is. My hat's off to those that actually did more than complain on these pages. Mr. Moy here is your chance to stand up for the average collector. Please take advantage of it.
APMEX made a mistake by jumping the gun with an early sale and started this whole mess rolling. If they wanted to do right, APMEX could have contacted each person with an alert by email/phone and started “selling off” their allotment early with and effective transaction date of December 6. If they still had any left by December 6, then sell the rest first come, first serve. Few would be upset if this had been done. I don’t support the strategy to dump 1,000 sets on the market early and then sit back and watch the market go into a frenzy. They intended to stir the hornets’ nest and that is exactly what happened. Now we all might get stung. I think APMEX should honor all 1,000 sales for those that want to keep to the agreed price, even if APMEX has to play in the resale market at an even higher premium.
I think one problem here is that most people don't know how the AP system works. I don't either, but from the bits and pieces I've picked up it sounds like the APs get the coins and offer them to their dealer customers. How is the price set? Maybe they set the price and give each of their dealers an equal share. Or maybe they let the dealers bid on them.
If the latter is the case, and if the dealers in this case all offered, say $1200 a set for them, then the retail was going to be probably $1400 to $1700.
If this is how it works, then APMEX was not so bad, being the only AP who sells direct to the public, to sell them at a slight markup from what the dealers were willing to pay.
Maybe the Mint can force the APs to sell at a slight markup to dealers, but then when you know they are going to jump $1000 in the next transaction, how is an AP going to decide which dealers deserves to make the instant $300,000 profit on their 3000 allotment?
The inadequate production caused a real problem, considering the distribution system in place, and I don't think the Mint is allowed to change the system under the law.
Michael, could you shed some light on how the AP/dealer network works? Does each AP have a limited number of downline dealers who get a fixed allotment?
The Fed Reserve just announced the the 100.00 bill that is new will be delayed for going on sale due to the bills creasing where the seal was placed. They will not be available to the public until each bill has been visually counted and inspected. ROFLMAO. I'm thinking that this is yet another attempt to make these bills more collectible. All the hype is just as bad as all the hype about these 5 0z bullion coins. The fact is that 100.00 bills are actually worth less then 100.00. Silver Bullion is actually worth spot or melt no matter what one thinks of Mintage. IT IS BULLION PEOPLE. WAKE UP and stop being sucked into all these scams.
"with 2,000 more to slab or sell as they see fit they have exposed just how corupt and unfair the system is."
You don't really know what the plan was for those 2000. Maybe they were required to sell those to dealers, or maybe they already promised them to their regular dealers. They are a wholesaler AP who is the only one to sell direct to the public. We just don't know enough facts.
I just got a letter from modern coin mart stating we need to expect "sticker shock", stating they were planning to sell them for 1500, but now they are going to be significantly higher!
"Mr. Moy here is your chance to stand up for the average collector. Please take advantage of it."
Mr. moy's hands are tied. It's really unfair for him and the Mint. They are stuck with the laws in place. They halted distribution now without having a clear exit strategy. I can't see any hope for lower prices because of the laws that are already in place. The Mint cannot control the entire supply chain, only the first sale to APs. If APs sell to other dealers and not the public, the public will never see these at any price better than 1395. APMEX gave the public the chance no one else would and now they get a bad rep for it. It's unfortunate for EVERYONE.
If anyone thinks the ASB bullion sets were priced way to high. Just wait 'til you see the slabbed coins all "guaranteed to be ms69 or 70" should they hit the street. Maybe they're already on Ebay. You won't be able to touch one for less than 500 a coin.
I hope the mint keeps the bullion and parcels them out from their site to put a partial lid on this corruption. I don't expect those who already purchased the coins to like this idea as all I would want is a 400 dolla rebate plus getting the coins. Sure the coins probably will go up even if the mint releases them but that is a market driven issue available to more people than from a semi-monopoly of AP's.
No need to hear any more from those who already purchased as your position is well known: Gimme ze coins plus 400 bucks. A gutsy play made in a semi-monopolized system is nothing special with another 2000 sets already planned to be hoarded by one of the AP's for the gigantic MS70 markup.
"I hope the mint keeps the bullion and parcels them out from their site to put a partial lid on this corruption."
Based on what law? They would have to go to Congress and have them change it. They are required by law to distribute the bullion by year end. Congress could not change the law in that short of time. There is no exit strategy and the Mint should never have stopped delivery without one. It only fans the flames higher.
There is one possible out and that is if the national park service steps to the plate and buys them from the Mint for distribution, but that has to be done by year end and it may be too late.
It looks like we have two camps. One supports ethics and morals and following agreements made, no matter what, because it is the right thing to do. The other camp just wants their coins and money, and will say or do anything to get them, since for them the end justifies the means.
And by agreements I mean agreements made with the mint. The primary dealers are supposed to follow their agreements with the mint. That's it.
"It looks like we have two camps. One supports ethics and morals and following agreements made, no matter what, because it is the right thing to do. The other camp just wants their coins and money, and will say or do anything to get them, since for them the end justifies the means."
More like those that found a place to buy them from, and those that are pissed that they missed the boat or cannot afford them...
Maybe the National Park Service could take them, mark them up to a “reasonable” premium, perhaps something slightly less than what is planned for the collector version, and then resell them using the Mint’s distribution channels. We are talking about the same volume as planned for the collector version, so it should not overwhelm the system anymore than other offerings have in the past. Should be easily doable by the end of the year. Just make a webpage and change US Mint heading to NPS.
The result of either camp Is the same for those that don't have coins ordered yet...higher prices than before.
If the Mint enforces the "reasonable" test, the coins will be marked up by the secondary dealers just as much as before, it just that now the secondary dealer will make the majority of the profit instead of the AP. There is no legal way around it. Apmex tried to do right by their customers and provided them coins at lower prices than they could have otherwise gotten. The real problem is that Congress approved the original coin design without regard to the manufacturing difficulties which resulted in a limited supply. In the end, the only winners are the economic theorists who wrote the book on supply and demand.
I don't understand this imaginary dream world you people live in that think Apmex tried to do the right thing. The right thing would have been following their agreement with the mint, and putting a reasonable markup on the coins "for bullion", not marking them up almost 100% It is not their job to find the market price!
It is NOT THEIR JOB to find the best possible price for them! And this is coming from someone who ordered a set from them. Do I want it? Yes. Am I willing to pay how much I paid? Yes. Am I willing to risk not getting them because I think it is better to have a wrong be righted? Hell yes!
To December 7, 2010 9:32 AM poster. I agree and this is the only legal out the Mint really has. not sure about the redistribution through the mint part, but it sounds good to me. They have to get it done by yearend though. I don't want to pay 1395 for my coins and would like to pay less just like anyone else. I am willing to take my chances on losing my reservation in the name of fairness.
Two camps? Looks like a bunch of eager beavers to me. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and as usual the average collector gets screwed. Nothing has ever changed with this situation and nothing ever will. The greed will go on and the scam artists and their publishers will always help them screw the average collector. In the end the average collector will never see a way to make any profit off this investment. The only hope the average collector will have is to wait and hope the US Mint sells these directly to the public at a lower mintage. The lower mintage numismatic version will make these values drop like a rock. So if you can't wait then you will get screwed by the greedy APs and dealers and never see much profit on your investment. That's all there is to it. I for one will wait it out as this has always proven to be more profitable for my investing. So fight all you want over this ignorant issue. Because in the end the average collector will lose buying these higher mintage sets at high outrageous markups that will drop when the lower mintage numismatic versions are sold by the mint in 2011.
"In the end the average collector will never see a way to make any profit off this investment."
You contradicted yourself, are you talking about an average collector or an investor? You are suggesting the average collector is a greedy investor.
Sounds like some sort of "doomsday" scenario to me. The numismatic version mintage is only 6,000 each lower than the bullion version. I can't see that totally destroying the value of the bullion issue.
To December 7, 2010 9:32 AM poster. I agree and this is the only legal out the Mint really has. not sure about the redistribution through the mint part, but it sounds good to me.
The Mint uses contractors for distribution. The NSP should be able to figure out a way to piggyback on the contract with some type of interagency agreement.
If the Mint sells the numismatic set less than the bullion set, the bullion set will not lose value, the numismatic set will rocket higher in the secondary market.
THE BULLION SETS WILL LOSE VALUE WHEN THE NUMISMATIC SETS SELL FOR LESS MONEY BY THE MINT. YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT NO MATTER WHAT ALL THESE IGNORANT GREEDY FLIPPERS SAY.
Yes because the centralized government knows how to price things properly for it's people without market forces. I think that experiment failed a while ago.
Why did the mint release mintage figures before they shipped these in the first place? There was not that much interest in these until they did that. If Apmex and everyone else did not know about the mintages then they would have sold them as bullion coins and this whole mess could have been avoided. It all boils down to the U.S. Mint not doing the right thing in the first place.
I had planned on just buying a couple of these that I liked the design of, now if they are released the markups will be ridiculous. The mint has done some good things, but this is not one of them. I can not blame Apmex for any of this except that they should have not started selling them until Dec. 6th or they had them in hand. Cheers.
If the US Mint uses the same calculations they use on the 2010 proof eagle. The numismatic version will go on sale for 229.95 to the public. That makes the whole set go for 1149.95. That will drop these bullion rip off prices severely and the buyers will lose their proverbial butts buying from these flipping scammers. I really hope Moy and company does this in 2011 and they get the profits our country deserves instead of all these greedy APs and dealers. It's time to put a stop to all this madness and start looking at the greed that is ruining this country.
Looks like a lot of flippers are going to be issuing refunds from there ebay presales - Greed brought down Madoff, and it looks like it will bring down a few flippers as well. Whoops.
I can see the giant srew driver heading my way ... APMEX has lost my future business.
APMEX - "If you would like to keep your order, there is nothing you have to do. We will let you know when we have more information." ... and be happy to keep my $1,400 loan to you as well???
HMMMM 1149.95 for a lower mintage or 1400.00 as a loan to apmex to lose my butt. I think I'll bet on the first choice thank you very much.
Can you say deflation on the bullion version. I SURE CAN. Screw those scamming APs and dealers I"LL WAIT.
The mint has had a lot of success selling coins with limited mintages while advertising the low mintages well ahead of the sale. Just look at the Lincoln C&C set, the First Spouses (bullion), the 2006 Anniversary Gold and Silver Sets, etc. All of these sets were reasonably priced and by enforcing the 1 set / household limit everyone could get a chance at ownership. I trust the mint more than any of these dealers: call them APMEX, Modern Coin Mart, Gainsville, or whatever. The Mint has been fairer to collectors by a huge margin compared with the profiteer=dealers.
Dear Mr Moy,
Please do what is right for the collectors. Price these coins out to the public at one per household. Even if you go up 5 dollars per ounce which is what the US Mint does every year. That would make each coin sell for 249.95 which would make each set sell for 1249.95 which I would gladly pay you just to give the greedy APs and dealers a message that gouging the public is wrong. I sincerely hope you consider this option and stick it to the greedy ones for a change.
As much as we may want that, it's not legally feasible.
Legally feasible LOL. It is going to happen pal. So take your legally feasible and stick it. The Bullion version of these coins will drop like a rock when the numismatic version is sold by the US Mint. You can count on that. Moy already proved that legislation can be changed by producing the 2010 proof eagles. So I don't think that your legally feasible excuse flies here.
The hits on this blog are rising faster than the melt value of silver. Thanks to the mint news blog for bringing out the opinion of people across all life styles!! Not since the 09 UHR gold coins has so much interest been shown. I'll bet we reach over 200 comments way before the powers that be find a way to iron this mess out. Al in OH
How many of these posts are from greedy astroturfing dealers?
To 12/07 at 10:53. The 2010 AGE and ASE Proof Coins did not get produced as the result of any legislation. They resulted from a business decision that was made only after the Director had determined that all of the legislated obligations could be met and the additional resources were available.
The pending "Coin Moderization, Oversight and Continuity Act" doesn't have any language about the AGE and ASE coins, either. However, this Act does specifically identify opportunities to modify the ATB bullion coins in the out-years (smaller diameter & increased thickness), while it also more clearly defines the Director's authority to make the business based, operating decisions about types, quantities and compositions of all coinage not otherwise defined by law; e.g., his ability to direct the production of the AGE and ASE Numismatic Coins.
I think the timing of these coins being put out was on purpose. Not only will these scumbag APs and dealers make great money on these coins. But the US Mint will also capitalize on the high profits due to waiting for higher silver prices to announce the release. To the one who said legally feasible. Legally each coin was supposed to be distributed as each ATB quarter was produced. All this IMO has been a plan to squeeze as much profit as possible out of these bullion coins by the APs, the dealers and the US Mint. Unfortunately there are always idiots with their money out there that drive prices higher then they should be. This is what makes collecting so difficult for the ones who can barely afford it. To me they are all in the same bed and probably had all this well planned out before it was even announced. So you can take it upon yourself to either wait it out or be one of the idiots with their money that make these prices outrageous. If no one paid these idiotic premiums. There would not be this problem. I guess the best thing to ask yourself now is. Are you one of the idiots or one of the smart ones who try to buy silver at silver melt values and hope for higher silver prices. All this modern day bull crap won't mean squat to anyone if it comes to you needing the weight of silver to survive.
If you want to be one of the smart ones, go buy a bag of 90% silver coins, be happy, and let us be. Everyone interested in the ATB coins is fully aware that anyone can purchase bullion silver at lower premiums. We all get that. Obviously, there are other aspects that draw us to the coin.
The aspect of scamming and ripping off the unknowing. Ok I get it now LOL.If it is the aspect of numismatics then I fully understand that waiting for the US Mint to sell at a high premium is also the plan of action to take on the ATBs. Hands down the fact that waiting this one out is all to smart compared to buying at outrageous AP and dealer premiums. As I said before and others before me. A fool and their money will soon part. I'll take my .999 silver at melt thank you very much. You can have the 90% stuff.
If the Mint follows through on changing the characteristics of the ATB bullion coins in years 2-11, then these first-year, low pop bullion coins could become the extreme rarities in this series. Bullion or Numismatic.
As a collector I am very interested in these units. The APMEX premiums turned me off. IMHO the Mint should find a way of limiting the sale to 1 per household despite these being bullion and of course lower the premium. I'm just waiting to see what the Mint does to resolve this situation...
Does anyone know if the mint does melt the 2010 versions of these "bullion" coins will the mint consider doing them again but with 2011 date instead? I think that could work but I don't know all the legal legislation crap for this. And sell it only at the mint with limits.
I heard the mint may scrap the program for this year and start it in 2011.
Waiting till 2011 would be the right thing to do. They would be able to make a boat load of them and every one would be happy.
The mint should just put the date of 2010-2020 on the bottom of these coins and release them at any time in the next ten years. Its bullion people-what does it matter what year it was made in. Laws were made to be changed-this being a prime example these fools in congress can't even agree to disagree= we want our country back!!
If you want your country back,your going to have to write one hell of a big check to china.
The post says Delayed NOT Canceled. Everyone will get their greedy piece of the pie. You can count on that. The question is how many people will be true idiots and fall for the APs and dealers outrageous mark ups. I for one will not be one of those idiots. As with the US Mint not complying to the original mandated laws on these coins for distribution. It is any ones guess as to how they will handle any given situation they create. You can almost be sure of one thing though. It will most certainly come from left field with no rhyme or reason other then greed followed by incompetence.
Delayed till 2011 dated ?
What 2010 Proof Silver Eagles? Already forgotten.
Yeah that's another thing the mint screwed up. How about making a 2009 in 2011. No worse than some foreign mints do.
Ebay Buy It Now. $2,795 for the set of Five. 1:15PM PST 12/7/2010
Ebay Current Bid $579 per Coin 1:16PM PST 12/7/10
Ebay should remove all ATB presale ads.
Silver at $115 per ounce. The APs did better than the Hunt Brothers. I would love to see this kind of price performance show up in the Kitco spot chart.
Check this ebay auction that just ended.
220706451132
220706451132: $682.01 Hot Springs.
That puts a set of 5 at $3,410.
I have to be honest. I am really tempted to presell one of my "possible" Apmex sets on Ebay. Those prices are just crazy.
I would hold on. The 1995-W Proof ASE had a similar mintage. I remember when $800 seemed obscene for those. Look at them now- $4,000.
Maybe that is what the Mint is looking at. Ebay.
They couldn't handle it.
If the mint were smart, they would just let this year play out as it happens. The hype for this series would be 10 fold compared to the fair and cheap distribution of coins. It's too late anyway. With that mintage for this particular series, it was always going to happen like this. Like I've already read, if it wasn't Apmex, it certainly would have been the guys on the next tier. Just keep building the hype. It will pay dividends later on in the series.
The set of 5 should top out at $10k with in a month.
You know, all it takes on Ebay are a few buds to bid anything to any amount you wish. I'm sure this is being done for more hipe.
Well, there is certainly no lack of bidders on the 95W Proof Silver Eagle on Ebay. $3500 for a PR69. That's crazy too, but people want them anyway. Who know where this will end up.
Any idea when we should hear a decision on what they are going to do?
I'm the one who sold a set earlier today for $2,558. That bid was completely legit, I didn't have any "buds" bid on it for me. I started the auction before the news came down the pike that the program has been delayed. I thought about stopping it, but decided to let it go to see how it played out.
Before you start calling me a greedy good-for-nothing, take note that I started the bidding at $1,600 for that set. After paying 9% to eBay (in this case, the $50 cap), 2.9% + .30 cents to PayPal and around $25-30 for USPS insured priority mail, I would have only been making about $80 on the set. It got bid up to $2,558 by people who wanted it. I hope I can deliver, but in the event that I can't they will get a prompt refund in full.
"America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins sell at prevailing silver market prices, plus a moderate premium to cover production and other costs. Silver is typically the lowest-priced precious metal, making these bullion coins an affordable choice for most investors."
-US MINT
How do you figure you'll only be making $80?
$2558
- 50. ebay fee
- 74. paypal
- 30. shipping
-----
$2404
Are you saying you paid $2320 for the set?
I said I would have been making about $80 for the set had it sold for the $1,600 I put it up for. That seemed to be the going rate yesterday.
Obviously, I made more on it due to the extreme bidding.
Oh, and I forgot to mention too that Uncle Sam will be getting his tax on that capital gain, provided I'm able to get my coins and can deliver!
The President of MCM, Mr. John Maben, sent out a detailed and philosophical notification email discussing the ATB Bullion situation to the current MCM customer base. Way too long to copy and paste into the blog.
Basically, as a retailer who was planning to buy from the AP's, they found themselves caught way off-guard by the revised mintages and timeframe in which they were announced.
This paragraph is verbatem from the email and places some perspective on the impacts at the retail level: "Our intention was to offer the coins both uncertified and certified and we had planned on obtaining a minimum of 1500 of each coin. This won’t happen. Because we will only get a fraction of what we wanted and will pay way, way, over the U.S. Mint selling price to distributors, it is likely that we will only be able to offer the coins certified but this is yet to be determined. Rather than being first to market with these we believe it prudent to take a conservative approach in allowing the smoke to clear first. Until the professional numismatic community can source coins in a manner that affords us appropriate, required, and reliable advance notice, we suspect a certain element of chaos will continue to exist with some products that can make markets somewhat disorderly. We will continue to do our best to offset this by acting with caution and in a manner that we believe will allow us to meet or exceed your expectations."
A very proactive business management approach from a responsible CEO to his customers.
Proactively waiting for the smoke to clear?
I am rather glad for this action. Hopefully the Mint will find some means to get these into the hands of collectors without ripping them off as opposed to just giving them away to E-Bay scalpers.
Well, if the Mint decides to delay the release of these huge rounds, those buyers on Ebay may want to cancel their pre sale orders if the delays goes past 45 Days because they may not get their money back from dishonest sellers, because of Ebays and PayPals rule of 45 day limit to lodge/file a dispute.
Something to think about!!!
Surprised MCM would even buy these. For the past year I've only seen them sell OGP's and very, very few coins. Nice try MCM.
boy, oh boy! another ploy by Moy he uses us as toys how coy! oh! the joy!
what is everybody's taaaaccctttiiiccc?????
looookkkk just give me one small chip of a coin. even just a few molecules then i can die in peace
"Oh, and I forgot to mention too that Uncle Sam will be getting his tax on that capital gain"
Actually, flipping would not be a capital gain, it would be business income on schedule C with regular tax rates and social security and medicare taxes.
Lower capital gains rates are for long term investments. Running a business on ebay puts one into the business tax rates and next year PayPal, MasterCard and Visa will start sending you and the IRS a 1099, reporting all your sales. Better keep good records of every purchase (at coin shows and flea markets) so you don't pay tax on the full sales price!
Surprised MCM would even buy these. For the past year I've only seen them sell OGP's and very, very few coins. Nice try MCM.
Well, if they sell very few coins, they should change their name from Modern Coin Mart. So what do they mostly sell? Beanie babies?
I though Ebay pre-sales had to complete and ship within 30 days. What happens to those who go past 45 and have not recourse for a refund?
If you pre bought something way before the release date, you might not get it within the 30/45 days... but what's the difference, as long as you get it? Just be sure the seller has a good reputation, and it shouldn't matter how long it takes them to deliver.
"as long as you get it?"
And if you don't get it you have no recourse whatsoever???
Soooo.......Does the USMint really think they can just wait their way out of this fiasco. Short of Mint a crap load more of these, lets just get on with it. Who here thinks they are currently slaving away at minting another 50000 sets. Could be ya know.
crickets chirping ......crickets chirping.......
It would be pretty low of the Mint to strike more of these, after they had issued a press release stating what the mintage would be. However, I'm sure it would not be illegal in any way.
By withholding the ordering and distribution of coins the Mint has actually increased the profit of the APs as silver has gone down since Monday and the prices the APs were charging their customers were fixed. That'll show those APs. Way to go US Mint!
Well, no word from the low mint for 2 days, someone did however manage to place this bs on their page recently. They really want us to believe their GUARANTEE ????????
"The United States Mint offers guaranteed delivery by December 25th on any in stock item, anywhere in the United States. To guarantee delivery by December 25th, order deadlines are December 6 for standard delivery and December 13th for express delivery. Please be sure that your credit card, billing and shipping address information are updated to minimize any processing delays, which could effect the delivery date."
Got mine today. Boy it's so thin it fits in my disc drive and I can watch on the screen.
Would have gotten mine today if the US Mint had left everything alone.
More government socialism.
The truly insane in the membrane bidders are bidding the 5 oz parks up to 500.00 each and over on feebay. I wonder if any of these ignorant bidders even realize that they will never get their money back from that investment until silver hits over 100.00 an ounce. This is true proof that the ignorant fool and their money will soon part.
Sales of bullion/coins/collectibles qualify for taxation under capital gains - just not long term capital gains. So you pay tax at the same rate as ordinary income, but do not have to treat the income as business income.
"Sales of bullion/coins/collectibles qualify for taxation under capital gains"
Only if you only occasionally make a sale. If you sell on ebay you are a dealer. Otherwise you would need to file 100 pages of Schedule Ds listing every item you bought and sold and the dates!
Provident Metals just listed their 5 coin sets for $899. You can place them in your wishlist and they are limited to one per household. Check it out and see what you think?
http://www.providentmetals.com/2010-5-oz-america-the-beautiful-5-coin-set-brilliant-uncirculated.html
you/we have crashed their website, JEESH
sorry.
Where did the guy listing this auction get these pics? It's showing a US Mint employee handling the coins and placing them into tubes. Check it out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-5-oz-SILVER-BULLION-AMERICA-BEAUTIFUL-5pc-SET-/130463625921?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item1e603cf2c1
More pics here...just scroll down.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn130/bherring1964/mint2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.php%3F5807-America-the-Beautiful-5-oz-Silver-Bullion-Coins/page3&usg=__n57VeOUACnlVIjXeh-GGBhx5yUo=&h=360&w=557&sz=29&hl=en&start=114&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=fQyHkdlKft1cCM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3DUS%2BMint%2BAmerica%2B5%2Boz%26start%3D108%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1
Is that 899 price new on Provident's website or has it been there? Did anyone actually get an order in at that price? Were they ever accepting orders at that price?
"Only if you only occasionally make a sale. If you sell on ebay you are a dealer. Otherwise you would need to file 100 pages of Schedule Ds listing every item you bought and sold and the dates!"
So making one sale on ebay you are a dealer but occasionally making a sale to the coin store I am not? Based on what?
I called the IRS last year and just pooled my buys and sells. Since there is no long term capital gain treatment, your holding period is not relevant.
The new Provident price was changed from $1329.95 (nobody placed any orders at that price or the previous one)
There is reports from people who have spoken to other dealers in which they said the sets will be priced around $900 or so.
Is apmex going to change their price for sets already sold? Has anyone talked to them?
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