Prices for 2009-W Julia Tyler First Spouse Gold Coins
Secondary market prices for 2009-W Julia Tyler First Spouse Gold Coins have moved substantially higher, following the conclusion of US Mint sales on June 2, 2010.
Recently completed auctions show prices for uncertified coins ranging from a low of $960 for an unopened proof coin to a high of $1,595 for an unopened uncirculated coin. For certified examples, prices range from a low of $795 for an example graded PCGS PR68DCAM to a high of $1,727 for an example graded PCGS MS70.These prices come from a total of 11 completed eBay auctions from the past 15 days. The date, selling price, and basic details of each auction are shown below.
Completed Auction Prices for Julia Tyler $10 Gold Coins
| July 3, 2010 | $ 960 | unopened proof |
| July 4, 2010 | $ 795 | PCGS PR68DCAM |
| July 4, 2010 | $ 890 | PCGS MS69 |
| July 4, 2010 | $ 925 | PCGS PR69DCAM |
| July 7, 2010 | $ 1,495 | unopened unc |
| July 9, 2010 | $ 1,595 | unopened unc |
| July 10, 2010 | $ 999 | unc |
| July 10, 2010 | $ 1,727 | PCGS MS70 |
| July 11, 2010 | $ 999 | proof |
| July 11, 2010 | $ 2,326 | unopened proof and unc |
| July 12, 2010 | $ 1,600 | NGC MS 70 |
Admittedly, as with many other issues of the First Spouse Gold Coin series, the availability and the market for the Julia Tyler coins is somewhat thin. Prices exhibit a very wide range and only a relatively small number of coins are bought and sold each week. Nonetheless, all prices are higher than the last available US Mint prices, in most cases by a wide margin. Just before the conclusion of sales the proof coins were available form the Mint for $779 and the uncirculated coins were available for $766.
The Julia Tyler First Spouse Gold Coins do have a number of positive aspects contributing to the higher prices.
These coins have the lowest reported sales figures among the First Spouse Gold Coins that are no longer available for sale at the Mint. The last reported sales figures (through May 30, 2010) indicate 4,820 proof coins and 2,861 uncirculated coins sold by the US Mint. These figures represent an extreme low on an historical basis for US Mint issued gold coins. The figures will also remain a low point for the First Spouse series for at least the next few months. The Sarah Polk First Spouse Gold Coin, which is expected to see sales end on September 2, 2010, already has sales figures exceeding the levels of the Julia Tyler coin.
In addition to the low sales levels, the conclusion of sales for the Julia Tyler coins may have been unexpected for some collectors (although not to Mint News Blog readers). When the Jane Pierce coins were released on June 2, 2010, sales of both the Letitia Tyler and Julia Tyler coins were concluded. Typically, the US Mint has ended sales of the longest available coin to coincide with the release of a new coin. In this case, the US Mint ended sales of the longest available two coins. The change was necessary because five coins were issued for the series during 2009 instead of the usual four. It's also worth noting that the Julia Tyler coins were only available for about 10 months, compared to the usual 12 or 13 months for previous issues of the series that did not reach the maximum authorized mintage.
The combination of low mintage, unexpected conclusion of sales, and a nice design may have woken up some collectors to the potential of the Julia Tyler coin. Demand and prices for the coin will bear watching, but for now it looks like adherents of the First Spouse Coin series have a winner on their hands.
Labels: First Spouse Gold Coins
posted by Mint News Blog @ 12:41 PM
92 Comments:
Is it just me? Looks like Julia is leading while dancing with the president on the reverse of her coin. I suppose some dancing experts will say that the woman's left hand is extended "occasionally" in some dance moves. Or are the mint designers suggesting something more subtle. Or, more likely, everyone at the mint is asleep at the wheel.
Have not been interested in the spouse coins but have no problem with those who like them or think they are a good investment. This one has a very clean design and as stated the low mintage plus surprise ending for many collectors may jump start this series. Congratulations to those who like these coins.
The prices are deceptively high. Prices of these coins are just a few $100s, not double or triple the last sales prices. The ROI (Return on Investment) is rather low. Plus, specific coins that sold for high prices were certified or were in an unopened box.
If you bought a Lincoln log cabin roll set from the mint for $9, you can sell them for about $80 or so. Or about 9-10 times what you paid for. So your ROI is far greater than for a gold spouse coin.
cents, quarters, medal etc.. you could waste your money on lots of stuff. At the end , coins with mintage in millions as a rule have little value.
who ever came up with the idea of minting the first ladies with half an ounce of gold???
With the series consisting of what at least 44 coins... for a collector who wanted the whole set he\she would have 22 ounces of gold... quite a commitment as a subscriber or series collector.
the first ladies IMO should have been minted in one tenth ounce gold.... would have sold like hotcakes. And now the total commitment of the collector would have been reduced to 4.4 ounces. Which is a whole lot more doable for a larger group of people.
In response to 5:05
I checked Lincoln log cabin set on ebay and it is sold for as low as 8 dollars. Not 80$. So your return on investment is nothing, actually you are losing . Just wanted to correct you.
i just looked too, and the current lowest bid on lp1 rolls is 63.22. are you sure you were looking at TRUE lp1's and not those ones scammers try to pass off as lp1's.
I think the moral of this story is.How much is it worth to you.And how much of a fool will you be with your money.Because when it gets down to it.IT'S ALL FOOLS GOLD.FIAT NUMIS POSTURING.
I don't understand why anyone would want to buy an unopened package. How does the buyer know what is in the box? And what happens if the buyer decided to open the box and found out that there was no coin in the package or that another coin (perhaps of substantially less value) was substituted in the place of the coin that he thought he was bidding on? It's probably not too hard to do a bait and switch in these type of auctions.
I think the spouse coins were made in 1/2 ounce of gold to match the exact size of the presidential dollars.
Gold is at $1193 an ounce, maybe they will lower the spouse coin prices next week.
I respect the ambition of people wanting to put together a complete set of spouses. However, to me, these are just way overpriced bullion. Another example of the mint (and some dealers in the secondary market) taking collectors for a ride, even those with the money to burn. Who cares if the mintages are low? Demand is low and will likely remain that way. Sure, interest might spike when Jackie Kennedy is released but most likely for Jackie Kennedy and not some obscure spouse. There are world issued gold coins with very low mintages that carry little or no premium over spot. Unless the price of gold GREATLY increases over time, these are truly a risky venture.
9:15, there is an as yet undisclosed US Mint rule that states in even numbered years, bullion collector coin prices only correct in one direction, upwards. Therefore, the First Spouse, Buffalo, etc series will not be correcting downwards with the price of bullion.
This is in anticipation of higher bullion prices in odd numbered years. Based solely on London Fix of course.
Speaking of the Hodgenville rolls I have seen more versions of cancellation stamps on those than the three 09 Lincoln ceremonial coins that followed.
Not to mention red and black Post Office cancels with either thin or fat circles.
Has anyone taken the bother to publish photos online of the official stamps from the Hodgenville ceremony versus some scam ceremonial or postal stamps?
Jim L.
I believe folks will buy an unopened package in the hopes that it will have a MS70 coin inside it. If not, the package can be returned for a refund.
You won't see too many folks buying coins that they can't return....
The true value of the First Spouse program will become apparent gradually over time as political clout of American women grows.
I make my living studying political and social trends. When the FS program was announced, Hillary Clinton still had a decent shot at becoming the first female president. This introduced the prospect of a 'his and hers' Clinton presidential and FS coins...with the added bonus of a first male first spouse coin. I'm not arguing that the FS program was launched just for the Clintons, but the political and numismatic possibilities of the duo had to be somewhere in the swirl at the time.
Thankfully, Hillary didn't make the final cut, but she did pave the way for capable women to win larger prizes after a stint as first lady.
As female political clout continues to grow in Congress, states and the private sector, which is absolutely happening, so too will support for continuing the FS program. I can't fathom people like Michelle Obama, Hillary, their spouses and supporters allowing Congress to discontinue the program without an ugly fight. The political symbolism of eliminating a golden tribute to every first lady in American history won't fly.
More important, as future first ladies and other women ascend to higher offices, it's reasonable to envision increased market demand from a growing base of female collectors of FS coins. By then, acquiring complete collections will be an even more expensive proposition than it is today, but the historical value of the series will have taken hold.
Although I agree with many of you that designs for most of the FS coins minted to date have been just awful, as the series increases in popularity and historical importance, I have to believe the US Mint will finally get serious about improving FS design quality. (It can't make modern icons like Jackie O or Nancy Reagan look like comic strip characters.)
In the meantime, I've built and will sustain a complete set of unc and proof FS coins at grades MS/PF 70 and will patiently enjoy watching this often emotionally charged and controversial series evolve.
EJL
I would love to have a complete set of proof and uncirculated First Spouse Coins.
Unfortunately, only a few of us have the money to 8 x $750 (or so) = $6,000 EACH year on building such a collection....
I find it funny how people care so much about obtaining a MS70/PF70 of modern coins in plastic grading holders. It's a very particular grade. I just don't believe there is such thing as a perfect coin. Nowadays, most coins from the mint are going to be of exceptional quality.
One thing I don't like about PCGS is that they are trying to manipulate the coin market. Their special pricing grids, outrageously faulty survival and rarity estimates (on purpose) on coin facts, and the fact that you have people like David Hall and the rest of the gang there that create a conflict of interest.
I agree with EJL...well said. Unlike many I've stopped buying the old stuff and have switched my efforts to the spouses, both the gold and the bronze. I don't see how they can miss becoming unique and sought after collectibles. Go ladies!
I agree that those collecting the first spouse's will have a substantial collection when finished. That said, in just gold prices alone, the sets will be sale-able to only a very few collectors, unless the selling collector is willing to break them up. 99% of the collecting public would be unable to put the cash up for these. So it is a double edged sword. Time will tell how the hobby treats the FS. Great if you like them and can afford to finish the set.
BTW I disagree partially with what ELJ said. Unless Bill Clinton passes aways before the program ends, he has no chance to be on one. Carter and Bush 41 are still up in the air, as to if they will make the series, and I'm unsure if the spouses must have passed also to make the list. I do agree women in politics is growing, but there isn't any indicator that will translate into new women coin collectors. Did the number of women spike in the years since Susan B. Anthony or Sacajawea coins were introduced? Maybe a little but I doubt it was the coins. After all a woman (Lady Liberty) has been on US coins a long time, and it hasn't appealed to many women. Still hope the FS collector realize a good investment profit for their commitment to the series.
TO THE 12:26 BLOGGER;
You hit that spot on.Why anyone would risk outrageously inflated prices on these spouse coins is just plain insane in the membrane.To the ones who paid almost $1400.00 ROFLMAO.Looks like the sharks sure loved you.The fact's are that gold is less then acceptable at current mint prices.To prove this just look at the sales.When price goes down demand goes up.If the price of gold does go to 2500.00 like some think.There will be very little demand at that price.If the price blows out you lose big time.For someone to gamble on any mintage of any series before it is over is exactly that. GAMBLING.
Money of any kind has always been a gamble much like any commodity.
To assume that a label and a piece of plastic makes any like coins any more valuable is also insane in the membrane.If you can not see the so called perfection and recognize the difference yourself.
You have no business investing in coins period and specially gold.
To the person that is so well versed in politics and women.You may want to look at the myth that a PCGS MS or PR 70 coin is worth $1400.00.If you paid that outrageous price.To date you would have 30 coins at 15 oz at 1400.00 per coin would be $42,000.00. At average of 750.00 from the mint is S22,500.00.
Excuse my french.But how in the hell does PCGS or any TPG think or claim that their plastic and paper labels are worth as much as the gold inside them.Have you people lost your minds out there.HELLO WAKE UP!!. Has anyone ever really thought to look at these less then professional labels.There is no mention of mintage DUH!!!!.There is no mention of population which really only shows that know one thought they were worth grading DUH !!!!.
Are you people out there just plain ignorant that buy this crapola.I guess I'm just to smart to fall for any of this crap.I sure wish some others would become smarter.Then maybe the real scammers out there would get the message.But as long as there are complete idiots with the foolish buying.There will be the jerks that take advantage of them.
Here is a quote from Julia Tyler herself.If she only knew her name was being used to rip people off.Do you think she would appreciate that?
Julia Gardiner Tyler qoute:
"I have commenced my auspicious reign and am in quiet possession of the Presidential Mansion... this winter I intend to do something in the way of entertaining that shall be the admiration and talk of all Washington world.
Julia Gardiner Tyler"
Somehow I don't think she meant admiration from the scammers.I figured the least I could do is show a little history.Because it seems all people care about any more is the money they can make off of any made up bull crap scam.Quite Frankly, I have grown very tired of it all.And I'm not taking this idiotic gamble.Because at the top scam price ($1400.00) you will only break close to even if gold does go to $2500.00 an oz.I guess it just shows how people don't think before they act any more.No thanks to those kind of people (Minnows) the scammers will be around to be your happy little shark.WAAAAKE UPPPPP!!! AMERICA
If you're so "smart", why don't you know that you're supposed to space between sentences? You sure are consistent with running every sentence together!
The pice seems now closer to 2000 $ on the proof version J.Tyler.
L. Tyler price is also up. Well smeone is ready to pay. I will not be selling my coins because I do not want to break my collection.
I have them all so far. They will not be bastardized, and plasticized by me. Maybe someday if my heirs want it so for resale they can do it, not me, 69 or 70, I think it's a joke.(but I do know out of those I have a few would merit 70s just by the odds alone). Yes, I know I'm gambling but I'm in pretty good shape looking at a solid middle class retirement in 10 years. This is without a doubt the biggest gamble in my life and I'm enjoying it so far.
As a teacher I've also decided a little part time summer job is in order so I can keep up with the costs. As long as I enjoy it, and you enjoy what you're collecting who cares what others think. Go ladies!
First rule of coin collecting: buy what you like and can afford. Flippers and investors are gambling and thats okay with me. This will be a pricely little collection for those who obtain everything. Forty plus ozs. of yellow is a lot of green. Not many can afford the whole banana but for those who do they may come out alright if they can find a Presidential museum or historical society that wants a set.
to the teacher.
This is not gambling, you will always have the gold. The gambling is stock market.
If you are buying gold in the hopes that the price will rise.YOU ARE GAMBLING.Pure and simple.
I continue to be amused at the anger people have for the grades coins receive from TPG's and the prices people pay for those graded coins.
Rather than express frustration, don't buy the graded coins...as I assume you're not. I've been collecting for years and 70's most often command sometimes a very significant premium. The market has been and continues to be there.
In the meantime a coin, graded or not is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Why does that bother some folks?
In terms of risk, there is risk with everything you collect or "invest" in wether it's coins, cars, real estate, stocks or even cash. To each his/her own.
Can you tell the difference between a PF/MS 69 from a 70? If I had to gamble, it'd be no. You'd absolutely not be able to tell. There is no such thing as a perfect coin. So the 70 grade on 100% of coins graded as such are overgraded/misgraded. I've seen many key dates coins that looked like they deserved to be body bagged, but were graded like nothing happened. It's a joke sometimes with the biases certain coins can receive.
PCGS is the biggest offender of market manipulation. Once all this hype saturates within the market, you'll eventually figure out that David Hall and co. have taken you for a ride. PCGS has basically admitted to capping certain grades (such as 70) for a coin. Does that not scream fraud to you?
These grading companies are like training wheels for collectors. It's sad that people spend upwards to 25-50% premiums on coins just because they have the PCGS label on it, or to spend that much just to add it to their registry sets. That's okay though, while you blow your money on that plastic, I'll be using that extra money to buy more coins, you know, the thing that this is all really about. Until collectors learn to be able to grade on their own, you'll continue to be dependent on these services. It’s like they say though, a fool and his money are soon parted.
Could the same argument not be made for coins in general?
It is worth the value of the metal. Just because a government agency decided to strike a picture and date onto it, why does that justify a premium over the value of the metal onto which it is struck?
Again, to each his own.
The design on a coin is its artistic value. If more people like the artistry and there is a less quantity then demand value increases. It doesn't matter what the mintage is. If there are 5 mil coins struck but 10 mil people want it. Look out. If many care very little for the coin design then the difference between the artistry on the coin and 1 oz. plain bullion bar value will remain very close. Artistry is just one of the elements of value along with metal value, condition, rarity, and demand. Error coins have their following also which can also add value. But the baseline for value is always demand. Rarity does not always create value increase. Rare coins with little demand have smaller value increases. Conversely high mintage combined with high demand may also create value increse. The silver buffalo commem from about 10 years ago had a mintage in the hundreds of thousands but also has a very high demand. I believe it goes for around 250 bucks nowadays compared to its intial price of around 40. So there is a 1 oz. silver coin with metal value under 20 now going for over 10x the metal value.
I just don't like how some of the services (notable PCGS) act towards the market and the hobby though, that's all.
As far as coins, coin collecting has been a long standing tradition that has history behind it. It goes further than just government issued coinage too, such as medals or tokens that aren't official. I guess though in time, coins graded by these companies will eventually have history to them as well. Heh.
If there was a TPG out there that actually gave you a good product and made it worth the price of grading. Then I would be all for it. The problem is in the slabs themselves. They are completely without needed information to the coin they contain. This is to me a great mistake made by all grading companies. To not even show the mintage is crazy or the weight, size, composition. Instead the TPGs would rather harp on (First Strike) marketing special labels that are lies and totally misrepresenting the actual coin slabbed.These companies harp on being professional when they are merely just concerned in total profit made off of mass bulk grading.Once in a blue moon they actually get a true rare coin to grade and then they bastardize it because it was not with a well known back patting member.I can't think of any TPGs I would trust with grading my coins even if I were to have them graded.So I will just go on saving more money to spend on coins I like and want with the money others spend on buying the TPG services or graded coins. If you buy coins that have government packaging. All the information is usually there in the COA. To me all the people do by unpackaging the coins and doing away with the information (COA) is devalue the coin. Many may say that their ms70 or pr70 coin holds more value. It is my belief that there is no more difference between a ms69 or pr69 other then the idiot who thought their actually is a difference. Who ever paid the supposed $2000.00 for that half oz modern day coin should have their head examined. And who ever sold it for $2000.00 should be ashamed of themselves.
Within the last hour a PCGS PR70 Julia Tyler sold on eBay for $2551 (with 29 bids) and on July 10 a Letitia Tyler PCGS MS70 sold for $3550 (with 33 bids). These weren't even first strikes. A few other spouse gold coins have also sold as Buy it Now in the $3500 range. Hard to believe that people are willing to pay that much.
"...I can't think of any TPGs I would trust with grading my coins even if I were to have them graded..." July 18, 2010 10:14 AM
Trust me you are so RIGHT! I made a very BIG mistake sending some of my precious Gold Commems to PCGS. They came back lacquered with enamel, and when I complained they acted as if they didn't know if it was their responsibility until I sent them digital photographs of before and after. Then they ultrasonically cleaned the coins in Ez and made them much worse. When they were all done they left score marks all across the coins and they looked very unnaturally shiny. I will never trust those *%xt@rd~ again. Be very careful with these cheap TPG crooks. There's no guarantee that they will not mess up your coins and I highly recommend taking notes on each coin and keeping high quality photographs of them. There's also probably no guarantee that you may even receive the same coins which you sent in; and they may turn around and blame you to protect themselves.
Just proof that ignorance is bliss in the eyes of the modern day scammers.With so many more spouse coins coming out.The odds that a lower mintage will come out are very high.Then the people who put all that money in this coin will be sorry.Gold would have to go to $7000.00 an oz for them to ever break even.I hardly see that happening.Modern day coins in no way at all deserve these types of premiums.Give me two nice older authentic ms St Gaudens any day of this ignorance.This has been a huge marketing ploy by the coin industry that obviously has worked against the hypnotized ignorant buyers.
I guess this would mean that my gold Lincoln coin with a 500 mintage would be worth what? $7000.00.LOL I'll be more then happy to give it up for that.If people are truly that ignorant.I'm all in for the ignorant buyer.Oh it's only a little over a 1/4 oz and the US Mint actually stole the same design for their ball park token.Maybe I should list it for that just to see who the true idiots are.Nahhh I want to sleep at night.It's not for sale.
Secondary market prices for 2009-W Julia Tyler First Spouse Gold Coins have moved substantially higher, following the conclusion of US Mint sales on June 2, 2010.
Marketing ploy? Yep sure looks that way to me.Notice how the price harping is in the title here just like it is in many of places.Be careful who you believe with this modern day junk marketing.
This is just plain wrong.Have people even begun to see the set up here to inflate the prices using the FIRST STRIKE OVER GRADED LIE.
ebay offering #150467745825
over $5000.00 for a 1/2 oz of modern day gold
HOW SIMPLY PATHETIC !!!!!!
I can't believe any body in their right mind would fall for this complete scam job.
The dust will settle at some point in time. If I had that kind of $ I would go after some high grade St Gaudens or early Liberties. It also makes me wonder if these are real collectors who are purchasing at these hyperinflated prices or perhaps real estate agents with $ to spare???
I don't think $1,500 or more is an unreasonable price for an attractive modern U.S. gold coin, such as the Julia, with a mid-four-figure mintage.
My favorite group in the Spouse series is the four-coin "Liberty" subset, which will be completed this year. Reasonably low mintage, attractive and, best of all, can be completed without breaking the bank.
Technically, the "Liberty" subset consists of FIVE coins. The fifth and final one is for Chester A. Arthur's presidency, but depicts Alice Paul.
I wish the Mint had not done that, but instead had used a fifth "Liberty" design. Alice Paul sticks out like a sore thumb! She was not a First Lady, but IS a real person. She does not fit into either theme of the program.
Gold spot has taken a big hit today. The average of London Fixes is $1,197.50 so far this pricing period. I hope this holds up long enough to finally trigger a price decrease for a change.
I just hope that the Wednesday PM fix is not back above $1,200, or else the prices will not drop despite the average being in the $1,150-$1,199.99 range. That whole "within the current range" baloney. What a kick in the pants that would be!
If they're going to do it that way, why don't they just let the Wednesday PM fix alone determine the next week's price level? Since it has the power to override an entire week's average anyway, that is essentially what they are doing!
There is heavy proof of price fixing by many different avenues.There is also proof of price manipulating by the top TPGs.Why people believe any of these crooks is a mystery to me.Soon enough the world will control the markets when there is no longer any belief in the systems in place that are caught manipulating.The fact that these different entities will eventually crash and burn will only lead the way for the world to set the true market values.With all the shenanigans going on out there much like Michaels hype of this coin.There can only become those who wake up and stop believing them.Michael, You are no different IMO then most of these bullcrap TPGs.You harp on only showing high unrealistic prices on ebay of all places where all the idiots with no knowledge buy.Then you try to make it look like these prices are reality when all they really show is how completely ignorant the coin buying public is any more.This article you write along with many others is just proof of who's side you are on.Capitalism is on thing.But the same type of ignorance and greed shown here looks very much like the wall street scum that continues to rip off the tax payers.So next time you show your hyped up bull crap modern day unrealistic prices.I hope you consider that your no better then all the ebay rip off scammers and TPGs.And quite frankly I could care less how you feel about my opinion.You do nothing but help ruin this hobby with bull crap articles like this.
Maybe this site should be renamed to US MINT HYPE
These comments sound like they were left by people who wish they had bought the Julia Tyler coins from the Mint when they had the chance! Too bad for you, crying now won't help you. You can't say you weren't warned that these coins have potential.
To the 12:34 blogger:
Actually I made the comments and I did buy them from the mint. What completely makes me sick is all the false marketing of these coins. It will only make my investment worse later on because of what all these people falsely report on them. Sounds more like you might be one of the ones hyping this modern day coinage up higher then it should be to me. These are 1/2 oz gold coins that may deserve a premium no more then 100.00 above mint or spot price. But to hype them up above that is just plain wrong and if you had any knowledge of numismatics. You would know that anything more then 100.00 over the mint price or spot price is just a complete rip off. I expected a lack of knowledge response like yours though. Because your probably just another scammer trying to say these comments are out of jealousy when they are actually out of common sense knowledge of numismatics. I will not sell my collection of these coins because I intend to finish the complete set. But to have you say I wish I had them, just shows what kind of person you are to put me down instead of the obvious rip offs out there going on with articles like this. To much false hype will end up ruining the value of these coins. So if you are just a flipper who only is in it to rip people off. Just remember that what comes around goes around and I do not appreciate the over hype and over pricing.
July 19 2010 11:57
Hype? He's just reporting facts.
If the coins were selling below
melt,I'm sure he would be reporting
that. I don't collect this series,
but each to their own. You need to
get a life.
I doubt anyone can go wrong collecting "COINS." Years ago I picked up a 4 coin set of the Jackie Robinson coins without the slightest interest in mintage. I love baseball and just wanted to acquire something which I felt was unique about a very unique person. Around the same time I picked up the 32-coin Olympic set for the 1995-96 years. Once again I had the $ and felt it was unique. I still have all these coins in my possession. And I plan to buy coins I like regardless of the HYPE. I'm also really getting interested in the Allegorical / Liberties. I will make up a set when I have the funds. I know I will enjoy these coins. And yes I too do NOT care for TPG opinions though it is hard to get original quality coins which are not shrouded in plastic. But I am selective and it will always be the COIN. Nothing else!
Response to the 1:38 blogger:
Nah, I own the complete set too and am also in it for the long haul. I actually own 2 complete sets of Uncirculateds and 1 complete set of proofs so far, as well as a partial extra set of proofs of the 2007-2008 designs. I haven't hyped anything, as I haven't sold any of them yet either. It's not that I have a lack of knowledge. In fact, I truly believe I have more knowledge about these things than many other people might. Your comments just sounded so full of anger and resentment, I felt like saying something to defend Michael and his blog. He doesn't MAKE the news, he just REPORTS it.
Like it or not, eBay auctions are one of the best ways to guage market values of coins and many other items. Think about it: Some of these coins are so RARE, you will very seldom ever see them being sold in coin shops or at local coin shows. The few that show up for sale pretty much do so in eBay auctions.
You'll have to give up on your belief that these gold coins should never sell for more than $100 over spot gold value. Time after time in the past, low-mintage gold coins have garnered HUGE premiums over spot. Since you have so much knowledge of numismatics, you should know that people have forked over more than $4,000 in the past for the 1997 Jackie Robinson gold uncirculated coin, and it was only a $5 coin, far smaller than a First Spouse coin. Also, the mintage of that coin is almost DOUBLE that of the Julia Tyler Uncirculated coin!
People must think the coin is a good buy at today's prices. It's not a scam, it's just reality. Get over it.
I think it may be time for me to sell my gold spouse coins while prices are high and before gold spot falls any further.
The fact do hurt don't they. And I
To the 1:41 blogger:
I don't see this site reporting on anything but Hype.Just look at the so called "Notable auctions". I happen to have a great life thank you very much. I'm just fed up with all this over rated bull crap. Buy the coins for the coin.If you get lucky great. But to hype things up so you and your buddies can rip people off that don't know any better is just plain wrong and you know it.
This site only reports on the high prices that people pay. Usually people with very little knowledge of what to pay which is very deceptive. If this site posted the highs and lows to show the actual average price then I would agree.But to show only the high end idiot bids is just plain over rated hype.
to 2:05
The spouse coins are so ugly that
all the hype in the world can't
help anyway. I can't believe with
all your expertise,your actually
paying the hyped price the mint is
charging for these things.
Hmmmm...I see some very bitter and unhappy people on this site. Michael, I may complain on here every now and then but this is the site I go to to find out about modern mint issues. I feel you do a very good job, and I often know what is going to go on from your site. I don't see this as hype, I am smart enough to know what one or two people spend is not necessarily the end all, but it could be a trend.
Yes, I do have all the spouses and think they are unique, and I do think many have good designs, and yes a few are overly cluttered.
I like showing my wife these "high" prices so she thinks I know what I'm doing. See,there's a use for everything.
Rant a bit if it makes you feel better and then go enjoy your hobby, any hobby. I am thrilled there are stupid rich people out there---but, if they really are that rich maybe they're not so stupid after all.
"I like showing my wife these "high" prices so she thinks I know what I'm doing. See,there's a use for everything."
HAHA! I guess i am not the only one who does that!!! now she says to me that i can buy what i want to! i just don't always have the $$ to follow thru. but she knows i will be buying the buchanan liberty so i can complete the libery sub-series because i liked the designs.... and that was all i could afford.
I feel sorry for people back in 2000 who bought PF-70 Sacs for $2,000! According to PCGS, it's the biggest 5 year loser now losing 90.5% of its value ($190 FMV). Still though, I wouldn't touch that silly PF70 coin even at a price of $190 since it's not truly a perfect coin anyhow.
I, too, enjoy Michael's blog. Ranters are entitled to their opinion, but that's all it is...their opinion. If they don't want to buy a coin, then fine; but why get angry about it? Coin prices fluctuate, articles are written about those fluctuations...so what. Everyone has to make his or her own decision...and then we get to live with our own decisions. I didn't buy the Julia Tyler First Spouse Unc coin, and that's life for me. I'm sure I'll get over it someday...
As for the "notable auctions," I personally don't use them much except when I am curious about the going rate for a coin I bought. One of the previous bloggers is correct when he states that eBay is the best way to find out the real market value of a coin. I am in it for the long-haul, but at the same time I like to know what's going on with prices from time to time.
Obviously there are a lot of opinions on this coin. I was lucky enough to buy a few from the mint. Would I pay $1800 for a 70? No. Would I sell one for $1200. No. This is how the market works, 3000 coins, everyone sets a price they are willing to pay, some in fact would not pay $1 over spot. We could all criticize each others spending , I am not a big fan of buying fancy clothes or cars, but it is our money so we do with it what we want. Its as simple as that.
Also, for those who like myself got into coin collecting because of our appreciation of history, I think the whole spouse series is very representative in our time, whether we like it or not. The first ladies in gold and our presidents In clad ( the other way around could cause problems with some groups). Congress making laws no one wants. The mint following a law simply because it is a law, even if it is not economically worth it (no free market). A lack of appreciation of the arts. The mint gouging collectors simply because they can. I admit it is a stretch but maybe these coins will allow us to teach our children/grandchildren a bit about life.
Using ebay as a price guide is completely without any wisdom to coin values. One day a coin might sell for 1000.00 the next it might sell for 500.00. It is pure pot luck bidding that you are looking at. Most of the high bids are usually from bidiots who have no knowledge of value and just get into bidding wars which only shows ignorance not value. When sites like this hype up the high idiotic bidders. It makes for a high artificial price. It is no difference then PCGS and NGC and their unrealistic price guides. So if you use ebay as a price guide and just assume that a bidiot makes you think it's worth more. Then you are no smarter then the bidiot who over bid on that item. The value is based on what a person feels it is worth to them of course. But to use bidiots to gauge your personal belief on values is no different then using the inflated grades and price guide scammers at PCGS and NGC that create their own so called professional opinions. The facts are that since PCGS and NGC came along to use their price guide lies in marketing. The whole coin industry has been artificially priced with lies. To many times I see brand new products come out all hyped up and go for outrageous prices only to see them drop like a rock within a few months or years. Once the popularity is gone. People stop paying idiotic prices. That is why it is always better to let the bidiots buy first and wait for the prices to come down. Because in 99% of the cases. The prices always comes down. So you can be the bidiot that the shark flippers and TPG authorized dealers love. Or you can be the smart buyer that says they are glad they waited. Ebay as a price guide is just as big a joke as PCGS or NGCs price guide IMO. And this site is mostly based on Ebay as the so called over priced notable auctions always show. For people to say that this is showing anger. They are IMO just in denial for being the bidiot that paid those high prices. Or they are pissed off because the truth hurts and they hate being exposed for being one of the scammers that rip the bidiots off.
The problem with your argument about the "bidiots" as you call them is that most of those sales were made with "Buy It Now", with no bidding involved. The asking price was stated, and buyers have been accepting those prices. They must feel that the coin is worth it to them.
With only one price fix left to go this week, the average is currently $1,193.69. Chances appear very good that the average will remain below $1,200 this week.
HOWEVER, spot is back on the rise now, and if it has rebounded enough for the Wednesday PM fix to be back above $1,200, we will once again be cheated out of a price decrease.
A lot of the folks here and on the popular coin forums are purely in the business and couldn't care less for the intrinsics of the coin: it's history and symbolism, the culture, the art, the technology, the politics, current events, and economics, legislation, and so on. How many of us even pay the slightest attention to something utterly unique about each coin: the engravers initials? I would bet that very few care to even know the artist-engravers, their work, and their backgrounds. One exception is "VDB" and it has more to do with the value of the coin than the artist himself, who I may add lived a very interesting life. These real and core values are often short circuited when the focus is money and the bottom line. It is a crying shame. I've posted before that PCGS/NGC are turning the hobby into something that is no longer recognizable, and is becoming far from enjoyable. We are being forced to ignore the coin and focus on the plastic shroud and the attached labels, all in the name of "value and security." This situation will eventually collapse on itself. We as collectors need to refocus on the coin. It's almost funny that in my collection I set aside the slabs and pay more attention to the loose coins which I pull from rolls and circulation. The thrill of finding something unique (the "chase") is far greater than purchasing predictable slabs.
EJL said...
The true value of the First Spouse program will become apparent gradually over time as political clout of American women grows.
It's also possible that it may make the demand/value of the FS coins even lower.
Long term(10-100yrs) these are all winners based on low mintage and gold value. Just wait and see the interest in this series when very, very soon there will be a "male first spouse"
Long term(10-100yrs) these are all winners based on low mintage and gold value. Just wait and see the interest in this series when very, very soon there will be a "male first spouse"
Todd Palin?
Even when a woman is elected president, there won't be a First Spouse coin for her husband (the "First Gentleman"?) anyway. The program will come to an end after all deceased subjects have been honored. It's highly likely that Betty Ford will have passed away in time to have a coin, but the Carters are still living and so is Nancy Reagan. Even Ronald Reagan won't have a dollar coin if Jimmy Carter is still alive by the time it's his turn.
The people in here complaining about PCGS and coins prices must have no clue about the coin industry, there are so many swindlers and coin doctors messing with coins your only safe bet is to buy PCGS coins.
Coins are cleaned, lasered, puttied, drilled, carved, filled, polished, refrosted, artificially toned, and you think we don't need 3rd party graders?
Puleeze.
This Julia Tyler coin has gone up in price because some people decided they want to own the coin and there are not many for sale. Prices go up as a result, this isn't rocket science.
If demand goes down later then prices will go down, but to blame PCGS for this makes no sense, even to the legally insane.
Anyone that pays 2000.00 for a 1/2 of gold should have their head examined. Anyone who paid 4000.00 for a 1/4 oz should be committed. If the economy tanks. Those coins will be worth melt at best. Good luck with your hypnotic ignorance. Just keep believing all this hype and the people making the $2000.00 and $4000.00 will be the ones laughing at you all the way to the bank. JMHO
Spouse Series is only hot right now because the US Mint has nothing to offer. This too shall pass as our economy goes in the drink. I'm gonna go out on a limb here to predict tomorrow. Gold will go over $1200.00. Why because it is controlled. Good luck with your hyped up Spouses. Enjoy the fame while it lasts.
I watched few minutes of the Coin
Vault last nite and can't see any
"HYPE" here. They have it all.
"Anyone that pays 2000.00 for a 1/2 of gold should have their head examined. Anyone who paid 4000.00 for a 1/4 oz should be committed...."
Tell that to those who purchased the 2008W AGBs. If the economy tanks, gold will go up and it will still be good investment.
Finally, for all the detractor(s), eBay is the market at work. Something is worth what the market is willing to bear. Getting a good average from eBay is perfectly legit; especially since many dealers are more expensive than the prices on eBay.
Anyone holding precious metals will probably come out fine in the long run as long as the US money printing machines are overheating from excessive operation.
To the 11.01 hypnotized lazy can't figure out a coin if it smacked him in the face so called 11:01 blogger.
You are said this:
Coins are cleaned, lasered, puttied, drilled, carved, filled, polished, refrosted, artificially toned, and you think we don't need 3rd party graders?
Puleeze.
PLEASEEEEE!!!!!
People like you are the ones feeding people this crap. Why is it only now that PCGS is bringing all this up.When in fact it is PCGS them selves with disclaimers and their actual authorized dealers that have been getting away with producing this crap you mention in the slabs that are out there as I type. Now PCGS wants everyone to do a regrade because they were caught at exactly what you describe. What makes you think any one should believe a word any of these liars say. Now PCGS wants to act like they have caught a few by suing them and inventing some sloman shield slab. PCGS has ruined coin collecting. They absolutely have driven it into the ground. So take your newly found PCGS sales pitch and blow it up someones butt that doesn't know the truth about them. They lie and cheat and over rate. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind want to give them a dime. Spend your money on educating yourself on what your buying and how to authenticate it yourself. Screw these David Hall driven junkies and learn the art of collecting coins for yourself.
11:22,
How long ago were you fired from pcgs?
To the 11:20 blogger.
The ones paying the price for the 2008 Ws should also be committed. If the economy tanks. The world will be a place that is unrecognizable. All those over priced coins will then be worth melt or spot at best. Any smart coin investor will tell you that these over priced items are a terrible investment. So again I say it. Go blow that smoke up someone else butt that will believe you that they are good investments. The only ones who made out are the ones who bought them from the mint. And that would change if your economy tanks because of the as you say it "overheated printing presses" keep going. As far as PCGS goes. They are doing a fine job of burying themselves now and I for one am glad to say I have never used them or fallin for their lies.
Feebay is the market at work making most of the profit. They simply love all these bidiots that over pay. Word to the wise. Don't be a bidiot on feebay. Then we might actually know the true value of these coins.
Market manipilation is a beautiful thing when you are selling, it's hell when your buying...
As it is, I only buy from the mint and only purchase newly issued silver and gold coins. In theory at least the coins I own weren't made in china.
Only trust your momma.
Goldfingers
Some Chinese coins hold extremely high values. If China keeps buying the US at the rate they are. You may be buying Chinese sooner then you think. Even your momma didn't see this coming.
"David Hall driven junkies"
FYI: I have it from this very horses mouth or a** if you wish (by e-mail) that PCGS does doctor coins as they see fit and attach a grade which he called "within PCGS specifications." I am planning to publish my whole experience with PCGS etching my coins and then encapsulating them. The experience lasted over several months so it will take a while - but it is going to come out in the near future when I have the time to put together the chronology of deceit by PCGS and Hall. And, yes I have photographs.
To the 11:20 collector, nobody said PCGS is perfect.
When you have so many coin doctors and altered coins in the marketplace you can't be 100% perfect in grading coins. At least they have a guarantee on their grades so if it turns in the holder or is proven to be misgraded they buy the coin back.
Anyway you stick to raw coins and see how far you go in Classics, on your first submission I bet most come back altered surfaces or counterfeit.
I've never seen so much vitriol, I feel like I am at a Jeremiah Wright worship Obama service. Anyhoo, I collect the first spouse because I like them. I hope they keep selling less and less of them because I believe their numismatic value will go up and up. If the economy tanks and gold goes to 300 an ounce then I hope it happens soon so I can continue to collect them at $175 apiece. That will Dollar Cost Average nicely for me.
For those who are speculating that the value will rise, that is thier peogative, that what creates a free market. I believe the guy who wrote the Comic book Spawn bought Mark McGuires 62 home run or 70th whatever it was for about 3$3 million. Whew!! Guess that didn't work out well, also all the Roger Clemens and A-Roid stuff that has dropped in value in the market due to the fake numbers these guys put up, who would've guessed? But on the other hand, there are many things that due rise....My guess is these will end up pretty good over the long haul...if not, it's still gold....and from my perspective, I just like the ladies.... ;)
To the wackos who need their bipolar medication. TPG exists because of market demand. And while the spouses are not my cup o' tea, anybody with the tenacity to keep collecting should be commended. They do have low mintages and some definate up potential.
TPG is needed, but whats up with
paying 2,3,500 dollars more for
1st strike or early releases with
the same exact grade?
TPGs are for lazy rich people who don't have the time or knowledge to authenticate a coin them selves. The ones who are just investors and could care less about history or artistry but love the bragging rights game. Or they are for flippers and authorized dealers who only want to use the TPGs over priced price guides to capitalize on the lazy rich bragging people. It's all a racket if your in it for those purposes.
A true collector takes the time to view the beauty in a coin and gain knowledge by learning about the coins history and appreciate all that they learn about authenticating and how to buy the coin with minimal expense to hopefully see their investment grow.
I would say that the TPGs are doing a great job by ruining trust with all of the issues that have been brought up and are widely publicized even by their own doings. As hard as they try to falsely glorify coins with gimmick labels. I don't think they will ever figure out that this has only hurt their over all profits.
A good TPG just doesn't exist any more. A good TPG would offer a more protective slab with all the pertinent information that all coins need on them. The slabs by PCGS are absolutely IMO the worst in the business for coin protection.If you question my opinion. Next time you have a PCGS slab that you are willing to ruin. Take the slab and set it out in the hot sun for one hour. The insert will actually melt. I have done studies on all TPG slabs. Hands down the PCGS will not hold up under these conditions or under moisture testing conditions. NGC,ANACS and ICGs do hold up with minimal damage caused. For a company to act as if it is the top TPG and fail simple tests like this. Only tells me that they really have no care for coin protection.
I remember the days where a coins grade, mintage, size, and composition was all that was needed to determine value. One must ask why these TPGs don't even put a known mintage, weight, size, and composition on the label. Instead they would rather put a big fat lie on them (first strike).
To all the people who have fallen for this registry set game the TPGs have created. Good luck ever seeing your investments pay off. History shows that in more cases then not. Your registry set collection will just lose money if you buy them at the prices the TPGs claim. So buy them up and lose your ass. At least you will have the bragging rights that won't buy you crap when you go to sell them.
As a long time collector and dealer I have seen many peoples mouths drop when they find out how much their registry sets are really worth in the real world. So live in you bragging rights fantasy land all you want. Because I will always be their to buy your coins for far lower a price then what you paid.
When people bring me modern day 70s expecting to get PCGS values for them.It does not happen. At that point they then realize how badly they screwed up by believing all these scams. So since this is a free country and you have the right to choose. I will be glad to see you when your ready to sell.
So you have your choice to make in life. You can be the one who is sorry later. Or you can be the one who enjoys collecting coins because it is such a fun hobby to be in with the right intelligence.
I heard the Tyler gold spouse coins ebay prices are being manipulated by a small group of professionals. Use caution.
Re: July 20, 2010 5:12 PM
I have to agree! Besides the failings of their slabs, PCGS simply cannot guarantee that the coins you send to them will be returned in their original condition, albeit slabbed and tagged for "security." One of their idiots actually dropped one of my coins (a rare precious gold commem and scored the devices in several places). This in my mind obviates the entire premise of their business which would be to establish and secure the value of a coin. BTW for those who thinks this is "vitriol" I'm very simply stating my experiences. Take it as you wish!
Ngc Slabs are pretty tough, good for coin protection and would seem to me to be waterproof cause,under
a sink of water and a knockle pressing it down on it, it didn't leak or break. I think trying this with Mint packaging, it might not fare as well, I've seen some Mint capsules that don't snap too well tight, some are just about broken open when you open a mint box. (Maybe the mint should make slabs too). anyway, Alot of older nice looking coins can be counter fit, so ,it's probabaly not a bad idea to have em reviewed for that.
I have rarely if ever seen a real "perfect70". There's always something that is'nt quite perfect; whether it's the totally irregular rim, the glints and shiny spects, or marks, or other contact chiselings that I've seen from the different grading companies. Pcgs may seem to prick some petty nice choice coins to be 70's, so do the others, but I've seen some equally fine 69s as well as some pretty banged up 69s from both pcgs and ngc. Anacs slabs look nice but some of the coins seem tone up early in them as well, as do some of the pcgs coins. Icg grades some nice 70's too and there holders are nice and tough too but they seem to look too often to have a somewhat scatched up appearance. And I have to say I don't understand the gummybear like substance that pcgs and some others are using to bed coins into? it more often than not totally obscures the rim of a coin and makes it look like its stuck to shoo goo or something.
So far as the first spouse coins go, the Jackson is a true classic type of coin, besides he was the last President to completely shut down, the central banksters,thus reasserting the US Mints Contitional role in providing for the Country's currency needs, so it may end up being a bit more popular than the others in the not too distant future.
Cornering the market example: 15,000 maximum mintage x $800 per coin for this example = $12 Million. So if a few rich people pool their funds together and come up with slightly under $12,000,000, theoretically, they could corner the market for one spouse - both proof and unc. In other words, market manipulation is a VERY real possibility.
The Mint says there are no order limits for the First Spouses this year. HOWEVER, I'm sure if the same few people tried to buy all 15,000 coins, they would reject most of the orders under their clause of "accepting or rejecting orders it determines to be in it's best interest." It wouldn't be in the Mint's best interest to sell most of the mintage to just a handful of buyers. Besides, those would-be buyers wouldn't be able to get them all anyway, since there is a quantity limit of 99 of the same item number per shopping cart order, and other buyers will be competing for the coins on the Mint's website at the same time.
One other thing to consider is the credit card issue. Do credit cards with credit lines in the millions of dollars even exist? Even if they do, how many people would have them?
On the flip side, Fleabay can be a great source to buy graded bullion coins significantly less than NGC or PCGS values. For example I picked up a NGC MS70 Jefferson First Spouse for less than the spot price of gold (with 8% Bing cashback). It was sold by an electronics store. I authenticated the serial number on NGC and then bought it. Same applied to a proof Buffalo and proof Eagles. So there are number of choice opportunities as there are rip offs.
Wow that is a beautiful coin! Too much money for me but I do think it will go up in value a lot, even more if they stop the first spouse program early! The dancing on the backc is just beautiful though!
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home