ATB Silver Bullion Coin Premiums Capped, Orders Limited
After a few days of waiting, we have a resolution to the America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins situation. In short, the premium that the US Mint's primary distributors can charge will be limited to a maximum of 10%, all coins must be sold to the public, and limits of one coin per design per household will be imposed.
These requirements are outlined in a new set of terms and conditions for authorized purchasers who wish to participate in the distribution of America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins.
See the related Coin Update News article.These terms would accomplish the intended purpose of making the coins as widely available to the public as possible at affordable premiums. However, in practice, things might become a bit complicated.
As mentioned in some previous articles, there is a small group of 11 primary distributors who will be able to purchase the ATB Silver Bullion Coins directly from the US Mint. Each one has an allocation of 3,000 coins per design, which they will be eligible to order.
Now, the coins can only be ordered if the new terms and conditions are followed. Any distributors who order their allocation would be required to sell all coins directly to the public, at a limited premium, with household limits imposed.
To my knowledge, only one of the distributors has a well established retail level business. The others might might have a difficult time setting up the procedures or infrastructure to deal in relatively small retail level transactions with very specific requirements.
Perhaps realizing this situation, the US Mint has indicated that in the event that one or more primary distributors does not purchase their allocations, any remaining amounts would be available to active sellers on an allocated basis on December 20, 2010.
Ironically, this may result in much of the supply going to the primary distributor whose pricing started this entire chain of events. If it does, at least they would be bound by the new terms and conditions, which will result in widespread distribution at a reasonable premium.
For readers who might want to contact the US Mint's other primary distributors to see whether they plan to purchase their allocation and make it available to the public, I have a listing of all 11 below.
A-Mark Precious Metals (Los Angeles)
Coins 'N Things Inc. (Massachusetts)
MTB (New York)
Scotia Mocatta (New York)
American Precious Metals Exchange, Inc. (APMEX) (Oklahoma)
Dillon Gage Incorporated of Dallas (Texas)
Prudential Securities Inc. (New York)
The Gold Center (Illinois)
Commerzbank (New York)
Jack Hunt Coin Broker (New York)
Fidelitrade (Delaware)
List updated 12/14/2010
Labels: America the Beautiful Quarters
posted by Mint News Blog @ 2:05 PM
222 Comments:
APMEX's site is stating that they sold all 1000 5-coin sets already. I guess they are either blowing off the Mint or haven't adjusted their website yet.
Way to go Edmund Moy - laying the smack down on their candy asses!
Do you smell what Moy's cookin?! It's not green beans - it's some fairness! w00t
The Good News: APMEX can't price gouge
The Bad News: APMEX will now get all of the profit from these coins
;_;
Apmex may in fact be the only one that sells to the public directly. So instead of a $579 markup on a 3000 sets, they'll get a $75 markup on 33,000 sets. So they make over $700,000 more than they would have. Well done US MINT! That'll show them.
Is anyone besides AMPEX going to sell these coins? I called A-Mark Precious Metals and The Gold Center and they both said that they will "probably NOT" sell the coins. I tried calling all 11 purchasers...but most are closed for the day on the east coast.
It's only Apmex....the US Mint "punished" them real good. I'll bet they were slapping each other on the back all afternoon, and now they are like..."WAIT...what have we done!!??!" Apmex is smiling again!
If the price is around 900, I will surely get a set of these baby. APMEX is not all that bad if there is some price control. I'll buy from them if the price is right, but they should learn their lesson from this, "Don't over price bullion." I hope they set up their website tomorrow so I can buy those baby. Yeah!
Provident is not on the list. It looks like they will have 1 set to sell and they'll have to buy it from Apmex! lol!
If I read the release correctly, the mint is going to distribute them "equally" to all 11 disti's - 3,000 each. So APMEX won't be able to get all 33,000... but someone says most of the others don't sell direct to the public. How's that gonna work?
Some of you would belly-ache about anything. Thanks Mr. Moy for standing up for the average collector. I doubt if only APMEX will cash in on this deal and so what if they do. If they were really the only company selling to the public than they have already regained some of my respect. I paid my money because I wanted the coin. I'm sure we wouldn't have got it any cheaper in the secondary market.
"the US Mint has indicated that in the event that one or more primary distributors does not purchase their allocations, any remaining amounts would be available to active sellers on an allocated basis on December 20, 2010."
The active sellers would be the ones who took their allocation in the first round. They would get an allocation of whatever was not ordered by the others.
So do we see these still selling out and huge premiums on ebay, or does this effectively allow all who want them to get them at the lower price and the sales on ebay plummet.
On the surface this looks like the best possible outcome for what was originally a botched operation. CONGRATUALTIONS to the US Mint for sorting through this mess and coming up with a better way. Sure prices will go up down the road but it should be more through the open market than a semi monopolized system
Nice outcome. But, why are we sending a portion to Japan and Germany?
Price controls have never worked. The market has already spoken. The price will be at least 1500 which is where they were originally when APs were selling to dealers.
I truly believe that the more people get in on this now, (meaning average collectors) the more this set and these low mintage coins will benefit in the future.
Should be interesting to see how Apmex will handle all the refunds on the presales. Seems like refunding everyone and then rereleasing would be the easiest option.
Dealers will have to buy these from the public if they wish to stock these. I also wonder how these will perform once they are widely distributed. The Lincoln Coin and Chronicles set did fairly well when they were sold one per household. I think these will do well, but you won't see the crazy prices that were taking place on ebay.
Oh contrare, prices will rise in the open market because there are a large number of people that will want a complete set. A set will still end up around 1500 maybe less maybe more as commenter stated but it will be in an open market instead of a closed monopoly. Yes price controls don't work but I don't see anyone trying to control prices once they are in the publics hands.
So can we assume that the AP's will not be able to hold these back for grading purposes before selling to the public?
"Seems like refunding everyone and then rereleasing would be the easiest option."
Nice try...the poster must have missed out. Actually, you won't need to worry, there were lots of folks that ordered multiple sets that will now only get one, so some stock will open up. Plus, Apmex only sold 1000 of their initial 3000 allocation. Those other 2000 were likely headed to dealers before so they will be sold directly to the public now. Apmex will make out very well with this since the other APs don't sell to the public. And frankly, if it wasn't for their sale to the public initially, this reaction would have never occurred. They broke the oligopoly and created a fair playing field to the public when all the other APs dealt to other dealers without the public getting any visibility to the pricing.
Yes, good point, grading will have to be done by a public purchaser or a dealer that purchases sloppy seconds. Less chance for many high grades.
On Monday night, I had posted the following as my Option 2: "Hold all of their AP's accountable to the terms and conditions of their agreements by dictating a maximum, reasonable margin. Given the current market for Bullion Coins, I had predicted $185, certainly no more than $200 per coin." KUDOS TO THE MINT.
In that same "Delayed" thread, Michael had copied the following quote from an APMEX press release into his comment:
"APMEX was the first and only AP that was willing to sell to the individual consumer and they did so at prices less than what other dealers paid."
Now consider this - I think the secondary date of December 20th is intended to give the other 10 APs an opportunity to determine if they can accommodate and want to provide 1st person sales. If not, then all of a sudden the Bad Boy becomes the only boy selling all 165K coins at a fixed price.
However, in order to do so, they would need to purchase and take delivery of the remaining 150K coins between 12/20 and 12/31. Capitalize $23M (if available) to clear less than $3M with the fixed margins? Worth the hassle? What if they are the only public selling option but decide not to purchase the remainder of the coins?
On the upside, the household limit should cause the Flip-bayers to cancel all but one sale because they can't take delivery. Karma is a Bitch!!
VABEACHBUM - my mom, brother, sister, neighbor (2) and grandmother will all have APMEX accounts and will be ordering. Karma is my b*itch!!!!!!
i can not believe their are people on ebay paying over $2700.00 for 25 oz. of silver ,they have lost their minds
Market prices cannot be controlled, no matter how hard the goobermint tries.
the authorized dealers can just hold their coins. or sell it to close friends and business associate at a 10% mark up. and later on sell it big at ebay or hungry collectors.
the mint should release immediately the 27,000 collector’s version to compete it. and push the market price down. after all collector’s version is fewer mintage and can be purchase directly from the mint for collectors at a fair price.
finally. for collectors. remember very few collectors collect 5 oz size. just like platinum or palladium. for me. i pass this one.
Good! Now I might be able to get a Yellowstone puck! Not looking for the set, just this single puck. It's for the memories! Yes, this news does rock!
This was a smart move by Moy. But, there seems to be a problem with all this.Who will enforce this and how will it be policed? Is the Fed going to now be the Coin police? I think not. Moy has also done the US Mint no good for the future sale of the other 27,000 due to be produced and sold to the public in 2011. I'm almost sure that they will have about the same mark up as they do on the Proof ASE silver. That would put those coins at a higher premium which WILL cause more people to go after these coins even though the mintage will be higher. I'm pretty sure a lower mintage will carry a higher premium. Or has Moy moved to not selling the numismatic version to the public at all and scrapping the idea of a 2011 release of the 27,000 5 oz ATBs? Either way this has proven to be quite interesting and even if the APs are kept to a low premium. There will always be idiots and their money on feebay who will drive prices to idiotic levels in the secondary markets that they will likely never recover from. It's nice to see a little fairness coming from the US Mint. But, I just don't see how they will possibly be able to enforce this with great accuracy.
"the authorized dealers can just hold their coins. or sell it to close friends and business associate at a 10% mark up. and later on sell it big at ebay or hungry collectors."
If the AP's participate, they are forced to distribute all of them. See condition #1.
"Authorized Purchasers shall make available for sale to the public all 2010 America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins that they acquire."
If they sell to their close friends or business associates, they can sell them one each.
"i can not believe their are people on ebay paying over $2700.00 for 25 oz. of silver ,they have lost their minds"
Dear sir, just the other day this "ONE OUNCE" had sold, so what's your point ?
(NGC 1995 w proof silver eagle PF 69 ult cam 10th ann. 23 Bids
Sold $3,000.00 End Date:Dec-06 11:08)
I have a question. What if I just want to purchase one coin and not the 5 coin "set". Am I S.O.L. ?
Gainesville coins has removed the 5 oz'ers from their site.
No where do I see that the US Mint stipulated that the APs could not have these coins submitted for grading. Just hypothetically speaking, Isn't this what many of the APs do to increase profits? How are the TPGs poised for this news? Do they already have their pipe dream price guide ready to roll for the ATBs? Are the TPGs ready for grading these at all? Will we see a legal battle and issue over this price controlling?
I in no way condone the act of outrageous mark ups due to a certain grade or mintage of a bullion coin. But how will the US Mint contend with such legal issues like unethical TPG suggested price guides? After reading the full terms and conditions. I saw no mention of the TPG mark ups. Could this possibly be the loop hole all the APs will attempt to jump through with legal representation.
After reading the quote below this sure will prove to be a very interesting outcome when we all look back on this major stand by Mr Moy. This quote looks to me to be quite serious with a major loop hole we may witness APs trying to jump through.
I hate to say it but I sure hope Moy is smart enough not to allow such a loop hole to exist. All I can say for now is. I bet there are many wheels turning in many directions to make sure that the maximum premiums can be obtained by the powers that are used to business as usual.
"For authorized purchasers who acknowledge and agree to the terms of distribution for the America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins, the US Mint has reserved the right “to examine and audit all of the Authorized Purchaser’s books, records, documents, and other data to ensure that they have complied with the terms and conditions herein. Violation of any one of the above outlined terms and conditions may be grounds for suspension or permanent removal from the United States Mint’s Authorized Purchaser distribution network.”
I'm still not sure when to buy ?? Tomorrow on "re-release day" or on the 20th ?? Help me get my set !!!
So in all this ciaos, will the US Mint be issuing the 27,000 numismatic versions in 2011? If they are, what will their prices be set at. This story is unfolding without all the answers needed for a good educated guess on which version to try to obtain. Any answers are helpful and we appreciate your efforts to bring the latest news about this latest AP fiasco at the US Mint.
To: No where do I see that the US Mint stipulated that the APs could not have these coins submitted for grading. Just hypothetically speaking, Isn't this what many of the APs do to increase profits? "
What part of the article that says that the AP's must sell to the public at a premium of no more that 10% did you not understand??
There is not a TPG loophole.
With all the wheels turning out there as I type. I'm finding it hard to believe that the US Mint can even begin to police this. The legal implications of price fixing and inability to rip off the public with plastic slabs that modern bullion coins do not belong in is absolutely mind boggling . I hope Moy can pull it off. But, I serious think this is just a move much like trying to legalize pot. It just isn't going to happen in real life right now. The one outcome I will be interested to see in the future is. Will Moy end up making more on his mark up through the US Mint numismatic version then the APs will be allowed to make on these versions.
No where do I see that the US Mint stipulated that the APs could not have these coins submitted for grading. Just hypothetically speaking, Isn't this what many of the APs do to increase profits?
I suppose they could submit them for grading beforehand, but since they can only charge 10% over what they paid the Mint, why would they do that? They would undoubtedly end up losing money with every sale.
Does this mean that the authorized TPG dealers and TPGs are screwed on bulk submissions. YES. Thank you Mr Moy I hope this works. Now true bullion can be had by the common man out there working their butt off just to put away a little nest egg for juniors future. I see this much like the Lincoln coin and chronicle with an average 2/3rds mark up on the secondary market that Moy will not be able to touch. The true question in my mind now to Michael is. Will you be waiting for the numismatic version now with a possible higher premium or will you be buying at 850.00 now?
Definitely agree w/ 8:21 PM. From Para 2 of the Mint's Directive:
"Authorized Purchasers may not charge any other fee, premium, or other expense to their customers to circumvent this ten-percent markup limitation... "
The Mint is defining the cost structure of these Bullion coins and is not allowing the AP's to increase the selling price by adding "value" through after-market services. For instance, the cost of grading would be an additional fee while the increased pricing related to the grade would be a premium.
The Mint will most definitely make more on their mark-ups of their Numismatic versions. Given current percentages, I'm anticipating a $75-$90 margin per coin; selling prices $225-$250 each. The important question is - will the Mint sell Numismatic sets or do we kick and scratch for each one? Gonna be a bad day on the Mint's website regardless.
So far I see no where on the internet that these are available to order at the Mints newly revised pricing structure. If anyone sees an opening some where. Please post it. So far APMEX is still showing out of stock. Has anyone that bought from APMEX received a notice of refund or cancellation? I'm hoping silver spot drops to 15.00 bucks tomorrow LOL. I believe that it will be many days before we see sales start up. But my trigger finger is ready for the first 850.00 deal on these puppies.
The AP's will be in no hurry to get these on the market now. Plus their big executive Christmas bonuses may have been screwed up a little. If the coins make it out for sale before the New Year I'll be surprised.
So far not a peep from APMEX.
I would hope to hear from them tomorrow saying "We'll ship your order next week for 899.00. Would you like a check for the balance of our gouging, or you can use this credit for more bullion products"
If the Mint policy holds, the standard retailers will not be able to sell. Gainesville has already de-listed and MCM has modified their product page.
Historically, the 10 other AP's are not known for 1st party, piece-meal retail sales. So unless some of them come out with some fast, high level marketing, APMEX will be the only public sale option.
Given the events of the past week, "gun shy" is the first term that comes to mind. I don't think APMEX will be making any adjustments to their website or announcing product availability until the coins are bought, paid for and scheduled for delivery. Probably late Friday afternoon. Wait... didn't all of this start on a Friday night the first time?
This is a total just deserve for the TPGs and their authorized dealers. I just want to see PCGS attempt to say that any of these are first strikes now LOL. NGC can't even say early release either LOL. I'm kinda loving this. Finally the average person can buy a bullion coin without getting screwed. If I see one first strike or early release slab on these. I will not be amazed at the insanity that these TPGs put out on bullion coins. I'd love to be a fly on the wall laughing my butt off at all these gougers out there.
MCMs revision:
There are no available products under this category.
APMEXs revision:
Currently out of stock.
I will Beting 1st strike or ER will being Ebay shortly Mint release
How about first Rerelease LOL. After reviewing all the APs. I see nothing happening any time soon. I find it hard to believe that only 11 APs are available for distribution and only one out of the 11 sells to the public. No offense to Moy but this should have been expected knowing that only APMEX would be getting a shot at the gouge. The mint should have many more investors out there with the ability to move these. They are now requiring businesses that do not do private sales to change their positions to keep from having these become another Hunt Bro fiasco. He who holds all the coins names the price. Why didn't Moy just mark them up and let them rip at one per household and avoid this whole issue. He must have known a low mintage of this nature is always subject to price gouging. It's called Hunt Brothers 101 duhhhhh!!!!!.
Here is what will happen, mark my words.
1. The 11 distributors will multiple sets each to the retail coin dealers they deal with on a regular basis because each retailer will have their brother, mother and cousin buy a set. There are 1,000 coin retailers in the country.
2. Since each of the 11 distributors has no idea who the others are selling, a retailer can in effect buy 11 sets for each brother, mother of cousing they have. If each of the 1,000 coin retailers has 3 relatives buy from each of the 11 distributors that is 3x11x1000 that equals 33,000 sets - THE ENTIRE MINT PRODUCTION.
3.Those mom and pop retailers and some that are large resellers on ebay will control the of the coins in this way.
5. Public gets screwed anyway.
If APMEX had only used the US Mint gouging price to begin with. They would have made much more then they will now. hindsight being if they had offered to the public 1149.95 plus shipping. Then this would have probably never happened.
Instead APMEX took it upon themselves to try to gouge the public during a holiday low mintage rush for $200.00 more . I can just see My in his office saying "how dare they gouge more then I do". I say the US Mint and APMEX are both guilty of price gouging on silver and gold products.
The US Mint is merely trying to save face by being the rescue rangers of the silver market. Presales showed just how ignorant buyers can be and now all that is left is one big mess to work out before the secondary market gougers get their shot at the fools and their money.
What a big mess this has become. All I wanted was the coins before Christmas which would have been doable if Moy and APMEX had any foresight at all. I personally blame them both. No sides picked here
congress is about to commit genocide on the middle class. To give your money to buy a stupid freeking coin from this gov is insane. Cant get a job, can't get health care, illegals working all over making tax fee bank, $3.50 for a gallon of gas, retirement age going to 69, English spoken by few, two unauthorized wars.....WTF....are you people nuts?
Could someone explain the math to me. What I understand is that the distributor can sale the coin at a 10% markup. If the price of silver say is $30.00 per ounce and the mint sells it to the distributor for $200.00 per coin(that is $40.00per ounce). Then a set of five should go for $1100.00. Or a single coin for $220.00 leaving the distributor a $20.00 per coin profit or $100.00 per set. So I can not see them selling the set for $1500.00 if they are getting a set for $1000.00.
Use your money to buy a rare coin.
A...real... coin.
These things are shiny geegaws and only interest "flippers" in the long run.
But I guess the rowdy-dow over the issuance will make them a "part of history."
Nothing else does.
They're BULLION! Modern bullion.
So anything above 10% of cost is considered gouging now? What does that say about the Mint charging $45.95 for the ASE when silver was in the mid 20s.
They are doing what Michael suggested!
Michael for Director!
The ones getting screwed, are the ones who paid big bucks on ebay.
APMEX new price will be $899 with
shipping $799
Silver is $29/oz and the Mint charged $2/oz so $31. $3.10 add on for $34.10. How many of you can get silver eagles for that price? If nothing else, a cheap way of buying US Silver.
As for the one per household - think back to 1999 with the proof sets were issued with the first State quarters. Limit of one per household. Coin stores were buying them for $100 while the Mint still had inventory available for $24.95. Creating an artificial shortage on a product drives up the price. It will be more so in this case, as the Mint had a lot more annual sets than these hockey pucks.
John
my point is their are so many decent numismatic items to purchase that has lasting effects,when silver cools and gold ,which it will sometime,and greed stops because as soon as something new comes out everybody goes a little crazy ,all of this drives the price of stuff way up..Five yesr from now you will have 5 coins to use as sinkers on your fishing pole,if i was going to spend that type of money you could buy a really good date ms cc silver dollar or a rarer gold piece and keep forever and the price would only go up though the years. You know the mint plays us for suckers,they did not have enough silver last year for the proofs , but as soon as they get the inside scoop that silver is on the way up, boy they can make all type of products,they are not stupid.If people would would stop buying this stuff maybe some of their polices would change toward the collector. All i'am saying is a real coin collecting trys to buy what is best for is hard earned money,not something the mint try to sucker us all in and i'am guilty myself too.
Just had a chat with Cristy @ Apmex customer support. They stated no news today.
"We received the communication from the US Mint yesterday afternoon and we will issue a statement early next week. Other than that, we have no additional information."
Dawson, I agree to some degree. Every once in a while a good product that will grow in value does come along though. The Lincoln coin and chronicles was one, as was the UHR gold coin. I believe the first year issue of these 5 ounce coins will be another. I do agree that 75% of what comes out at the mint is overpriced bunk and I am guilty of buying some of it too. My current trend is modern silver dollar commems that you can buy on bay for just over spot. A very small premium to pay for a coin that is guaranteed to track silver prices and may get a bigger pop if the numismatic value is ever realized. Morgans are good buys too.
All The APs are probably busy trying to figure out a way to go behind Moys back to maximize profits. This is sure to cause some ripples felt all the way up to the top brass of these APs. I'm sure many AP Christmas bonuses will suffer as a result of this news from Moy which I for one do not see happening to any one but the lower men on the totem pole. The AP top brass will make sure that they see all the profits on this deal with all the bottom feeding boot lickers that work for them getting screwed. Crap always rolls down hill. I will still buy my set and be done with this crazy scene. I will not flip my set and will keep it for my daughters future and hope that silver rises enough to make up for the 10% mark ups. If not, I'll have the first set of the series and be happy with that. I'm just glad that Moy did something about this to see that I had a chance to at least not get screwed with hoping silver will ever go to 100.00 an ounce just to break even. Because that was a risk I was previously unwilling to take.
If I paid $2700 per set on Ebay, And now will be able purchase for $900, how do I get my money back?
You don't. This is the consequence of government interference in markets with their price controls and price fixing. I feel bad for you, but you took the chance and the government screwed you. You can only hope the seller is as disgusted with the government as you probably are and gives you a break.
Although I doubt you'll lose money. The market has seemed to set a price already and regardless of what the Mint tries to do, the price will just return to where the market wants it.
"Anonymous said...
If I paid $2700 per set on Ebay, And now will be able purchase for $900, how do I get my money back?
December 10, 2010 6:28 AM"
When the seller is unable to deliver the product due to the one coin per household limit, you will be refunded your money. The seller can't keep your money if he can't deliver the goods. This is part of eBay's/PayPal's buyer protection. Also, if you used a credit card, just call the credit card company and dispute the charge due to non-delivery of product. The seller cannot keep your money if they can't deliver the product.
Cheers.
LL
"If I paid $2700 per set on Ebay, And now will be able purchase for $900, how do I get my money back?"
Seller might not be able to produce. Maybe he ordered 20 sets from APMEX and now will get only one set. He might prefer to get that one set slabbed and hope to sell it for a lot more.
Not to be rude, but you were really dumb to buy it for $2700 on ebay! You gambled and you might or might not lose.
I said "if", I'm not stupid.
I was surprised that the US Mint had foreign APs. I guess I just assumed they were all US based. Interesting.
Commerzbank International (Luxembourg)
Deutsche Bank A.G. (Germany)
Tanaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K. (Japan)
APMEX - Step in doo-doo, come out smelling like a rose ... nice move Moy.
I'm not interested in the set even at $850. They still are bullion with likely many blemishes.
I'd much rather have another Buchanan Liberty or a Mary Lincoln, or a 1/2 oz proof AGE, and think they are a much nicer coin and easier to display or store!
-JBL
Anytime the government gets involved in trying to set the market the very few rich always get richer, and the common people always get screwed.
@December 10, 2010 3:37 AM, don't be a moron. You are talking about proofs. Proofs cost more money to make and they sell for more. These are bullion coins that are supposed to be sold for spot.
This is going to be a very interesting situation. I have called and spoke with two of the authorized purchasers and both were very shady in their responses. Neither would take an order one of them said they would post a message on their site in a week regarding the issues with the new mint guidelines. He was stating that they were not sure if they were going to sell them. I suggested they take the quick 10 percent profit and run with it since they would sell them out in a day. He was very rude and quickly said that I have no idea what is involved and than hung up on me and said have a nice day. I really hope the mint comes down on these people. If they were going to play fair they would be accepting orders now. Who wouldn't want to have them all sold before you even took ownership of them. They are trying to figure out a way to maximize their profits on this by selling them to inner circle buddies at a higher profit. The mint will not be able to police this because the AP's are not stupid they will somehow have a list of 3300 different names with the correct price and all of those people will have some connection to them. They have all talked to each other all ready behind closed doors and are trying to figure a way around this mess. Why hasn't apmex just issued a refund and a correct order yet? every thing about it is bull shit. The mint should play hard ball with them and tell them there will be mystery mint shoppers out there trying to purchase from all of them and if they don't produce then face the consequences.
You people are weird blaming Moy for anything. Your brains must be hardwired for blaming whoever is in charge for whatever happens. "No clean bowls to eat my cereal. This is Obama's fault!"
Blame blame blame, that must be your pastime. Blame must be assigned first before anything useful gets done.
Clearly we have some APMEX execs postings here also (ie. 3:37 am post).
APMEX may make a short term gain from this mess, but long term they have lost our trust and will never be the same.
Nice post 7:58 am!
"He was very rude and quickly said that I have no idea what is involved and than hung up on me and said have a nice day."
How do you know he said have a nice day if he hung up on you?
APMEX will have to refund about $500,000 in profit, OUCH!
"He was very rude and quickly said that I have no idea what is involved and than hung up on me and said have a nice day." good catch. Sorry about the order of that but you get the point the official complete dialogue for those interested was.
"Hi am am calling to inquire about the atb bullion coins do you have any for sale? The mint has issued new guidelines in sales of this product so we are evaluating the situation and will post the information next week on our site. Does that mean that you may not be selling these? Yes that is correct. Why don't you just take the quick ten percent since you will sell all of them in a day? You have no idea what is involved."
He then was going to say something as he started to possibly give his reasoning he didn't even get half of one word in and then he apparently decided that it was not a good idea to give a complete stranger any additional information and quickly ended the conversation and said
"have a nice day"
And then he hung up.
If I had time on the conversation I would of loved to be enlighted about why a quick ten percent was not good enough. I'm sure there are expenses that they have but they could cover them in shipping charges I have a masters degree in mechanical engineering and and own my own business. I could of followed any math he threw at me and shot bullet holes through all of it. This quick conversation showed me what they are about. Let's face it if you are a bullion dealer you are a Gordon Gecko. He was obviously pissed about having a quide line to follow for once. But to be honest this whole mess is the mint's fault. This is like putting a heroine junkie in a room for a day filled with heroine and saying don't touch anything. The temptation is too great. There is a lot of money to be made here and they want to capitalize on it. Michael will you please run the mint or at the very least be a consultant.
Do you guys really think an AP would knowingly violate the agreement terms and endanger its AP relationship with the Mint. Yeah, let's screw one of our reliable revenue streams so we can sell a bunch of these coasters to our buddies. What world are you guys living in?
Just called APMEX and they advised that they will have an announcement on Monday about the ATB coins. They will not be available for sale today.
It's called the "world of greed".
What world are you living in? apmex already violated them. If the mint wanted to be a ball buster they could of punished apmex and suspended their allotments for a few weeks or months to teach them a lesson. They were suppose too sell them at a reasonable premium.
I'll bet the mint sells them direct to the public. Do you think the APs really want the mint (goverment) auditing them and opening a cans worms.
Here is the transcript of a web chat I had with a Customer Service Rep on Apmex's website. Kinda funny.
Tim:
I'm sure I'm not the first, but what is the plan with those of us that bought sets of the ATB Silver Coin Sets? Thanks, Tim.
Welcome Tim! Your request has been directed to the Customer Service department. Please wait for our operator to answer your call. We appreciate your patience.
Call accepted by operator Cristy. Currently in room: Tim, Cristy.
Cristy:
Hello Tim!
Tim:
Hi
Cristy:
We received the communication from the US Mint yesterday afternoon and we will issue a statement early next week. We do not have any additional information at this time.
Tim:
So no hope of getting a set by Christmas then?
Cristy:
I really couldn't say.
Tim:
Ok, is it safe to assume that I will be refunded for the additional sets over the 1 per household limit that the mint mandates.
Cristy:
You may call the Customer Service Manager Jana Hale at (800) 375-9006 ext 103 if you need more information. We cannot comment further on this situation.
Tim:
OK, thanks.
Cristy:
You're welcome and have a great day!
Tim:
Oh, I've also heard that some customers receive a tin of popcorn for Christmas every year, what does it take to get on that list?
Cristy:
I am not familiar with what the requirements are besides being a regular customer.
Tim:
Thanks for all your help.
Cristy:
No problem! Have a good one!
"I'll bet the mint sells them direct to the public."
I believe that the law says that they must sell them through the 11 distributors.
I don't work for APMEX, and I was really mad at them in the beginning, but now I think I understand their side.
If all the first line dealers who buy from the APs were offering, say $1200 a set, then their price to the public of $1395 was not unreasonable, and probably it would have been the lowest price that anyone other than a first line dealer could get them for.
Since none of the other APs are used to selling small lots to the public, maybe APMEX will end up with most of them. And maybe 10% profit on 33,000 will end up like the 100% on 3000 that they expected.
But I bet those guys are punching their fists through the wall over having to refund $500,000 of what would have been pure profit.
Maybe that's what they used to buy the popcorn!
Nah, they bought popcorn in years past because my dad received some the past two years. Me, despite buying a couple of Silver Eagle monster boxes and some gold coins, never received a crumb from them. I feel cheated. :)
Another positive word for APMEX, if they hadn't offered these for sale at $1395 on Friday night, then the Mint would have shipped them out Monday and the $1500, $2000, $3000 etc. prices wouldn't have been public until later in the week, when it was too late for the Mint to do anything about it.
"If all the first line dealers who buy from the APs were offering, say $1200 a set, then their price to the public of $1395 was not unreasonable, and probably it would have been the lowest price that anyone other than a first line dealer could get them for."
Apmex sold them lower than the price they were getting from dealers based on the CEO's statements. They were selling 1000 to the public at prices far better than customers could have otherwise gotten elsewhere.
And as far as profit, it's starting to look like they'll make more profit with the new rules than the old ones. Any refunds won't be missed because they'll be making even more money now on the additional coins they'll be able to sell. The Mint really punished them!
I'd like to thank APMEX. They must be thrilled. Now, Their customers get the coins cheaper and they get more profit. Everyone wins except the other APs that have been sticking it to the consumer for years by always selling to middlemen instead of end consumers, thereby resulting in higher prices to the individual collector.
I'm just glad that the USMint stepped in for reality. There are way too many greed driven hypsters in the coin business: PCGS, NGC, eBay, to name a few. After reading the post on the Mints rules I'm glad to see that someone is standing up for the everyday common coin collector. One per household at a 10% margin is fair to me and all other like collectors. I will try to get a set for keeps.
The Mint has overstepped their bounds though. They are forcing the APs to sell the coins at 10% over the price the Mint sells them REGARDLESS of the spot price of silver. That doesn't sound like bullion sales to me. Bullion sales are based off spot prices, not what someone paid for something.
The Mint did the right thing, the only ones hurt by this are the greedy bas#ers.
”Bullion sales are based off spot prices, not what someone paid for something.”
These coins stopped being bullion the second the Mint announced the production numbers.
"They are forcing the APs to sell the coins at 10% over the price the Mint sells them REGARDLESS of the spot price of silver"
Technically that might be true, but it will never play out in reality:
All of these sets will sell out within 1-2 days of release, so the sppot price of silver will not change much anyway.
Also, once APMEX sells all of their initial round of coins to the public, they will be free to purchase these coins on the secondary market and price gouge... they just got in trouble because their agreement with the Mint is that they cannot price gouge on initial sales.
So. When does the fat lady sing.
Yeah, maybe Apmex should include a free popcorn with the purchase of an entire set of ATB Coins.
That's why apmex probably doesn't feel compelled to rush to sell them today I guess. The sales price has been fixed by the centralized government (I mean US Mint). They may as well wait until they have the coins in hand to sell them again, just in case the US Mint reneges again on their agreement to distribute them.
By the way, how can you price gouge on the secondary market if they have to buy from that same market? I don't follow your logic.
"By the way, how can you price gouge on the secondary market if they have to buy from that same market? I don't follow your logic."
It's common practice:
APMEX sells initial round at fair price
Market price of sets goes to $1500
APMEX buys on secondary market for $1500
APMEX sells this second round for $2,000 each
APMEX and any big coin dealer can pull this price gougin off, because they have such a huge audience, they only need a few people to come by willing to pay the gouged price!
It happens all the time... just wait and see when it happens if you still don't get it.
That won't happen until all 33,000 are sold.
You contradict yourself. If the secondary market was 1500, then no one would pay 2000. If someone chose to sell at 1500 for some reason when apmex is selling at 2000 then that is their choice. By your logic, there is no value in a market maker and if you ever wanted to sell your coin you'd have to find the specific buyer for your coin. That's the great thing about ebay by the way, they have allowed the little guy to find a large market to sell to and thus reducing the value of a market maker.
At this point, whatever happens to these coins value is purely market driven and we'll see how fair of a price 1395 was in a couple of weeks.
What's this "inital" bull. Read the new mint agreement that was sent out.
"APMEX buys on secondary market for $1500
APMEX sells this second round for $2,000 each"
I don't get it. Why doesn't the stupid guy paying $2000 buy on the secondary market for $1500 instead? Once the coins are out there the free market lets people be wise or foolish.
"You contradict yourself. If the secondary market was 1500, then no one would pay 2000."
You are wrong, when you have the huge audience that big dealers have, you can price gouge.
It is irrational, I know, but watch and see when it happens. That's the way it works. I can't believe you want to pretend otherwise... look around!
"If someone chose to sell at 1500 for some reason when apmex is selling at 2000 then that is their choice. By your logic, there is no value in a market maker and if you ever wanted to sell your coin you'd have to find the specific buyer for your coin."
Once the coins have all been released and sold, APMEX is not making the market anymore... so you're logic that APMEX will be making the market after they put all the coins from the first market (themselver) into the secondary market is not right... they will be free and clear, and will do what I'm talking about. Watch and see.
If you think big dealers can't price gouge and charge ABOVE market prices for things, you're just being silly.
The Mint has overstepped their bounds though. They are forcing the APs to sell the coins at 10% over the price the Mint sells them REGARDLESS of the spot price of silver. That doesn't sound like bullion sales to me. Bullion sales are based off spot prices, not what someone paid for something.
The Mint is not forcing the APs to sell the coins. If an AP doesn't like the terms, they can just decline their allocation and not participate.
"The Mint is not forcing the APs to sell the coins. If an AP doesn't like the terms, they can just decline their allocation and not participate."
Exactly and that's why many APs won't participate and distribution will be limited and not in the spirit of the regulations which the Mint found so precious in the first place.
Plus, the Mint is now saying these are not bullion, when they used the reason that they were bullion as the reason to stop distribution.
Once the coins have all been released and sold, APMEX is not making the market anymore
You don't understand what a market is then or the purpose of a market maker. The market is everywhere and all around you. If a coin is bought and a coin is sold, it's a market, whether its the initial sale or the umpteenth sale. If a business buys at one price and sells at another price then they are a market maker and paid for that service by the spread in between. If you don't like the spread, you go elsewhere. That is a market.
Here's a scenario:
All the PDs say screw the Mint we're not selling these under your terms. So some upstart online coin shop (say, NWT Mint) tells the Mint we'll sell under your terms if you make us a PD. Or - imagine this - someone like Amazon or Walmart does this. Could be a golden opportunity to get in on a cozy gig.
If it wasn't for a market maker like Apmex, I'd never buy a bullion coin or be in the precious metals market. They provide a service that is safe and reliable for buying and selling precious metals. Buying and selling on ebay is risky at best. Local coin shops charge HUGE mark-ups and only pay spot for gold. Apmex and likely other APs pay OVER spot for american gold eagles. I have found a site like bullion direct that sometimes has better buy prices and I have sold there when I didn't like APMEX's price. The point is a market is a market and there is no such thing as gouging on the secondary market for coins. No one is forcing you to buy or sell.
Walmart would only sell them if they were made in china.
"All the PDs say screw the Mint we're not selling these under your terms. So some upstart online coin shop (say, NWT Mint) tells the Mint we'll sell under your terms if you make us a PD. Or - imagine this - someone like Amazon or Walmart does this. Could be a golden opportunity to get in on a cozy gig."
Yes, that would be very good. It's frustrating that there has to be another layer of dealer between the Mint and the end customer (i.e. Mint -> AP -> Dealer -> public). This is why I like APMEX and want to keep giving them business. They eliminate a layer and reduce cost of another dealer's markup. I say bring on new APs that sell direct to the public! I don't care if it's APMEX or another AP as long as it eliminates a layer.
Then why does Gainesville's prices on mint products beat APMEX.s?
Likely because Apmex has no competition from other APs that sell direct to public so they compete on price with the dealers that have to buy from APs and don't always have the lowest in every case. The more APs there are that sell to the public though, the better the price will get for the public. I am not promoting just Apmex, I am promoting their business model of selling direct to the public as an AP. I have no idea about Gainesville coins, but I will look to buy there if the prices are better, thanks.
If anything, this fiasco exposes the monopoly that APMEX has on the direct to consumer bullion marketplace.
APMEX, Please keep my order intact and I'll use the gouging money on some of your other stuff. Just keep my order please ??
A frustrated member of the public.
Just got this email; (for my ATB Set)
Dear Xxxx Xxxxx ,
We are pleased to inform you that your Personal Check payment of $1,419.95 for order #XXXX757 has been received. Since you have paid by Personal Check, we will need to wait 5-10 business days before we ship your order. Your estimated shipdate is Dec 17 2010 If your order has items that were “Pre-Sold”, your order will be shipped in full once those items arrive. A final e-mail notification will be sent once your order is shipped.
Respectfully,
The American Precious Metals Exchange
Maybe there's hope... I don't know.
"Plus, the Mint is now saying these are not bullion, when they used the reason that they were bullion as the reason to stop distribution."
Where on earth are you getting that interpretation from? The *law* says they are bullion. Clearly the mint agrees because they set a cap on the initial sale price of the coins.
Just got this email; (for my ATB Set)
That's just the standard boilerplate email that they send for all of the orders they process. I wouldn't put a lot into it.
I'm sure APMEX is having long meetings trying to figure out whether they should honor the existing pre-sales. I wouldn't expect a decision on this until early next week.
There is no reason not to keep the orders. They will stand. They just need to limit purchases to 1 and only charge $850 or whatever it works out to be.
Ampex , on Monday night after I had ordered 3 sets said this:
1. Since you have placed an order with APMEX for these coins, we will honor our orders providing the US Mint makes these coins available to us. Should the mint change their method of distribution (Not selling to Authorized Purchasers) and do not provide coins to us, we will have no choice but to cancel the order and provide a full refund.
2. If you would like to cancel your order, you are welcome to reply to this email and let us know.
a. If you have selected to pay by credit card, we will be happy to credit your card back.
b. If you have mailed in your check, please let us know and we will return your payment.
3. If you would like to keep your order, there is nothing you have to do. We will let you know when we have more information.
Sooo. sounds like to me APMEX should honor 1 of my orders at the new price and refund me the difference....they charged my cc on 12/7.
Getting greedy and ordering three sets I see.
To: Getting greedy and ordering three sets I see.
How do you figure that? When I paid $1395 a set I didn't know if if was being smart or stupid...i was taking a gamble.
There's another one who missed the boat.
On another note, yes, your right. APMEX did include that promise in their "delay notification" email.
Expect your rare set very soon !
This is really quite simple to understand if you have been in all fascists of the coin and specious metals business as well as having knowledge of customer demands and satisfaction. Coins have been a business for many decades and production limits have always caused peaks in interest.
Some will see the blame being thrown around as a direct result of conditions derived from the US Mints early decision to announce all mintage across the board on both the bullion version and a surprise lower mintage of the numismatic version to be sold directly to the public in 2011.
This sparked a frenzy that quickly dominoed from the US Mint at set prices during peak spot prices all the way down to pre-sellers on ebay poised to set market trends.
The APs and TPGs take notes of these statistics and draw out planned tactics and strategies to maximize profits. This is called capitalism folks which is mostly run under the majority capitalists (Usually republicans).
We are now in an administration hell bent on making sure the money goes from the rich market makers (usually republicans) to the common middle and low class sectors (Usually Democrats).
Although my analogy of these political blame games is only MHO. I truly believe that the analytical nut has not fallen far from the APs tree thrown by Mr Moy. This IMHO has become a political move by the far left to control capital gains by silver price fixing.
If I remember correctly this is the one thing that was announced and being blamed on by the people who are currently suing JP Morgan over huge losses caused by price fixing by the shorts gamblers.
I normally would not try to throw politics into the mix of a given situation like this. However, when the US government gets involved in price fixing of precious metals. Then the snowball effects can be devastating for everyone evolved.
Any practical business major with an ounce of knowledge in running a business will tell you that anything less then 33% profit can cause major stumbling blocks in the growth of a company. Perhaps the 10% allocated terms and conditions is merely just a push to stifle more growth caused by the quick sale and profits foreseen by the APs under unlimited business as usual conditions.
I have to revert back to the reasoning behind the excuse given by Moy with his reasonable request to make these coins widely available and affordable to all. But, somehow I just can't get out the thought in the back of my mind that says this is very much like communism and fascism or counter capitalism.
Either way you want to look at this completely unorthodoxed situation. There is plenty of blame to go all around. I'm just glad I'm smart enough to look at the big picture and not be foolish enough to pic sides. because just like all business decisions made. There will always be the winners and losers.
You forgot to mention the Black Helicopters hovering over you at all times.
To that c9omment I say thank god for the NRA.
Of course you have picked a side.
And it's not the Mint's side by a long shot.
I for one think the Mint did the right thing in this situation.
"I have to revert back to the reasoning behind the excuse given by Moy with his reasonable request to make these coins widely available and affordable to all."
This comment clearly gives Moy credit for helping all people to reasonably be able to acquire these coins.
The fact of the matter is that there are two sides and both sides will fight this out to the bitter end. Unfortunately there has to be two sides with much blame given on both sides.
Perhaps when all the smoke finally clears. We will see a better result to the market trends which usually go from freakish highs in the beginning to stabilized market trends in the end.
My hope is to see all sides pleased in the end. But after reading all the blogs here. It is easy to see that even when one side seems to win. They still find it reasonable to complain.
to the December 10, 2010 11:44 PM blogger.
Just one question for you. If you run a dog biscuit factory and you must make a certain set profit to maintain and grow your business into a dog and cat food products company. Then your biscuit mix supplier says you can only sell your biscuits at 10% profit. Will you want to keep them as your supplier or will you look elsewhere so you can meet your dreams of having a dog and cat food products company?
The US Mint / government IMO really has no business telling a private business how to operate their profit margins. That is a form of socialism and communism in my book. I truly blame the US Mint for only having 11 APs with which only one sells to the public. No one holds a gun to any ones head to by these coins. On the other hand a price of 1395.00 to 2700.00 for a set is outlandishly stupid for anyone to pay on these sets. The formula used by the US Mint on the proof ASEs was probably also not accepted by many. So really I see no sides to pick here.As I said before. There is plenty of blame to go around.
I wish Michael could set this blog up so no one can use an anonymous username. It would be so much easier to follow these discussions and the back-and-forth if everyone had to come up with a moniker. Just MHO.
Great idea, but might be difficult to do. Personally, I post my thoughts, etc., on several 'net message boards and blogs wherein many have different set-ups for handle and details. Few are actually common so it does get a little confusing for active posters to know which posting name he/she needs to use for the venue being used. It's silly to use common or similar posting details and poses real danger to those who choose to steal identities. Sad but true.
True.
Well of course there would have to be honesty involved in my idea but I guess that's asking too much as evidenced by the above post. After today I will join the rest of the anonymous posts here.
Just validating his comment...no harm intended :). I agree with your point in principle, it's just hard to enforce.
For 12:19 AM - I understand what you're saying, and don't necessarily disagree with your position, but here's the thing that puzzles me.
The members of the AP Network have to jump through a lot of process and financially related hoops in order to be considered. Part of that effort includes reviewing and agreeing to the Mint's very specific participation guidelines.
Since bullion sales began in 1986, and for the recurring, annual issues with 100's of thousands of pieces - ASE, AGE, APE and Buffaloes, the guidelines have not been an issue previously. Similarly, their mark-ups for those pieces have been reflective of the AP Network guidelines.
The law says these coins are bullion. The Mint told the APs that these ATB coins were bullion. By using the APs as the primary distributors, the Mint complied with the law and further confirmed the bullion status. The APs overlooked the bullion status, focused on the limited mintages, and recognized the profit potential.
Do I think it's fair to the APs? Not really, but they entered the program willingly. Do I think it's the fault of the APs? Not completely, as this bullion program was defined by 536 people who know absolutely nothing about developing, capitalizing and striking coins, then managed poorly from that point forward.
When you consider that the striking press wasn't delivered until mid-summer, and production didn't begin until late September, corrective actions - to include additional legislation and foregoing numismatic versions - should have been implemented over 3 months ago. There are a lot of guilty parties, we're simply placing the blame on the last guilty party.
APMEX opted to add the premium of rarity to the bullion before hand. It was a marketing ploy and it failed badly. Let's keep in mind that they are not the only ones. Just look at all the hype now that coin collecting has become an industry. People are marketing and selling labels on plastic these days not coins for collectors. I mean now we have PCGS "First Strike" , "Secure Plus" , CAC approved, ****** (you name it, and make sure you get a trademark). This is coin collecting for idiots. Forget the COIN and trust the label. It may not be your own opinion and choice / selection. And you pay dearly for it. The Mint was right t step in and put an end to the nonsense. I really wish they would pull up PCGS on all the rubbish which they peddle.
The Mint tried to play by the letter of the law when they distributed the coins as bullion, even though clearly by any rational analysis they are not bullion. The Mint cannot be faulted for that. The APs felt they had more latitude because they are used to "business" rules as opposed to legislative ones. They gambled and the Mint called them out. I don't fault the APs for not treating them as bullion even though the Mint did originally. Now, the Mint is obviously agreeing that these are not bullion because they are establishing pricing rules that are a) based on cost on and not on the spot value of the precious metal; and b) establishing rules that are not legislatively permitted under the existing bullion distribution guidelines. Frankly, it was a no win situation. Congress was the only one that could fix it and they have repeatedly failed to do that. The only "blame" goes to Congress. The coins will be priced on the secondary market after the initial distribution where the market thinks they should be. The market will never consider them just bullion. The initial pricing the Mint has made up out of thin air is nothing but a sham unrelated to the true value of these coins. The lucky ones that get them (hopefully me included!) will get a windfall.
The US Mint / government IMO really has no business telling a private business how to operate their profit margins.
In a free market I would agree, but this is not a free market it is a monopoly granted by the government and in such a situation they have a right to set prices.
And to the guy who said businesses need 33% markup to survive, that doesn't apply to bullion. APMEX sells bullion (Eagles) at just a few percent over their cost. Look at their price for Eagles and the silver price. They pay the Mint what $1.70 over spot and sell for a buck or so more.
The AP's have a guaranteed product they themselves don't have to produce. They almost have a guaranteed market. They have a guaranteed profit and they have no competition. That looks like a pretty friggin' good deal to me. No one is "forcing them to buy" from the mint to quote an oft used phrase.
It seems as though APMEX is the only AP who does direct sales to the public. APMEX has apparently decided to wait until next week to provide any info at all.
Given that 1) Mint rules are very straightforward, 2) costs to facilitate the sales of these coins in minimal, 3) APMEX is already set up for low volume retail sales, what is the hold up? It seems as if the only decision to be made is "are we going to sell these"?
According to the "delay" email from APMEX to those who have existing orders in place, they "will" sell these if they are are made available to them by the Mint.
There is no reason [for APMEX] not to keep the orders.
Those existing sales were made when the purchase price was at $1395. Those people who did not want to or could not pay that much did not have the opportunity to place an order. This means people who were willing to pay that much had an unfair advantage at acquiring the set at the reduced price.
"people who were willing to pay that much had an unfair advantage"
Maybe people who were willing to pay a higher price have a FAIR advantage and APMEX should reward them for being willing to support AMPEX and pay any price necessary.
Those not wiling to pay must not have been THAT interested in them.
Those first 1000 orders to APMEX should be labeled Early Releases and First Strike.
"Those not wiling to pay must not have been THAT interested in them."
Wow, you fail at logic and sound like a rich douchebag.
"people who were willing to pay that much had an unfair advantage"
Show me in the constitution where the word fair is???
If you weren't willing to bite at the original price point because you felt it was too expensive or some other reason then that is your problem, not mine.
I made a deal with a company who sold me a product. This same company has told me that they plan on honoring this business agreement as long as they receive the product. I only ordered 1 set so the loss of multiples don't apply.
Wise man once say. "You snooze, you Lose!"
THE MINT IS NOT PRICE FIXING. Price fixing, for the people too lazy to either use their brains or look up a definition, fixes prices at a certain level. This caps profits at 10% max to help ensure more people get coins.
If anything, the AUTHORIZED PURCHASERS MANIPULATED PRICES. After they started preselling they worked in collusion to abuse their monopolistic powers over the market to set a "market" price to give them obscene profits.
Don't forget these companies don't make coins, they are middlemen. They only exist to move products OTHER PEOPLE WORK HARD TO MAKE, and piggyback on other people's hard work by charging more money for it. They produce NOTHING and generate no new wealth to the world. These coins fell on their laps and they get to make many thousands of dollars of instant profit no matter what, even though they DON'T MAKE ANYTHING. So excuse me while I don't give a crap about them.
Sorry I know the 1 per household limit must be getting to you. You will have to work harder to buy a few thousand sets and fill your giant swimming pool full of 5 oz silver coins over the years. I hope you dive into it and break your neck.
"They produce NOTHING and generate no new wealth to the world."
Distribution is a service and has a cost and an economic value. Selling to one (or 11 APs) is more cost effective than selling to 33000 individuals.
"I hope you dive into it and break your neck."
What kind or person wishes that on another person!!!?
"Selling to one (or 11 APs) is more cost effective than selling to 33000 individuals."
MORE COST EFFECTIVE FOR WHO?!
THE 11 APs USED THE FACT THAT THEY HAD THIS MONOPOLY TO BREAK THEIR LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENT WITH THE MINT AND PRICE GOUGE... A 100% MARKUP AS THE RESULT OF THE DISTRIBUTION TO 11 APs WAS NOT MORE COST EFFECTIVE!
This is 2010 people, the Mint should have started selling bullion to the public directly years ago... and this experience proves it! The monopoly is being abused, so let's have a free market for once on bullion distribution!
What's the big deal anyhow? All they are is enlarged versions of mediocre coin designs.
Does anyone know how these will be packaged by the AP's? Ziploc bags, paper envelopes?
Where can I find proper coin holders for these? I'd prefer AirTites but I don't see anything that big.
Anonymous said...
What's the big deal anyhow? All they are is enlarged versions of mediocre coin designs.
December 11, 2010 1:01 PM
First 5oz silver coins made by the US mint, 2010 issues contain three of the most popular parks-Grand Canyon, Yellowstone & Yosemite, new legislation indicates that future designs may be smaller, thicker, have no edge lettering and may only be close approximations of the quarters instead of exact copies and 2010 will be a very low mintage.
All of these reasons make these coins possible key dates for the series even if they are only bullion. I intend to collect the entire series BUT..... Given the continued destruction of the US and world economies, silver will very likely reach levels that will make these coins profitable even at $1395. I was willing to take a chance at that price and I'm more than willing at whatever the new prices will be. I'll use the price difference to buy junk silver.
"Does anyone know how these will be packaged by the AP's? Ziploc bags, paper envelopes?"
A miniature shipping label on one side and a stamp on the other.
And insured for $0.25 each!
ROFLMAO! Perfect end to a perfect mess!
Can you imagine how absolutely pissed off the key dealers are who had orders in for 50 or 100 sets and were expecting to make $1000 or so on each set.
Now they have to buy from the flippers since the collectors won't part with them. They'll probably offer 20% over spot for them.
"The US Mint / government IMO really has no business telling a private business how to operate their profit margins."
Oh yes they do in this case(bullion). The APs agreed to re-sell them at a reasonable cost to the public--which they did not(I bought a set anyway on a hunch) And yes, if I make that 33% profit margin you so adamantly promote, than so be it.
For someone who rightfully distains Socialism, Communism, etc. you sure are hard on forms of capitalism too.
Good luck with that Dog Biscuit venture.
I am guessing these will work. They say 3 inch 5 ounce rounds???
http://www.vernoncoincenter.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=6035&idcategory=517
For those interested in the Gettysburg Quarter release, it will be January 25th.
Let me get this straight... The US Mint bungles the production for the bullion version of the ATB 5 oz silver coins thus causing demand to far exceed the supply. Then they try to tell independent business people how they have to run their business in regards to selling the ATB 5 oz silver coins under threat of cutting them of from being able to purchase from the US Mint. This is nothing short of government thuggery! It's obvious that socialists are running the US Mint & have also targeted capitalism & our free market system for destruction.
I would like to see every one of the authorized purchasers of the US Mint tell the US Mint that they are not going to tell them how to run their business & that they can just keep the ATB silver coins. If the US Mint is allowed to get away with this, you can rest assured there will be other issues that will come up where they will tell independent business owners what they can & cannot do.
Those holders may not fit. They are listed as 3.84mm deep but I thought the ATB 5oz silver are just a touch over 4mm thick?
Then they try to tell independent business people how they have to run their business in regards to selling the ATB 5 oz silver coins under threat of cutting them of from being able to purchase from the US Mint.
WTF? These are NOT independent business people. They are agents of the US government given a monopoly to distribute these products under terms set by the manufacturer. If they don't like the rules, I'm sure a thousand others would like to do it according to the rules, and get a guaranteed 10% profit for doing nothing but forwarding products.
"Let me get this straight... The US Mint bungles the production for the bullion version of the ATB 5 oz silver coins thus causing demand to far exceed the supply."
Thank goodness--A Coin Connoisseur's dream ! Such as the1895 PF Morgan Dollar, a 1652 Pine Tree Shilling, the 1804 Silver Dollar, and so on... If you really want it, you buy it. I suspect you really want it and would gladly pay 1395.00 or more per set.
"It's obvious that socialists are running the US Mint & have also targeted capitalism & our free market system for destruction."
Your being awfully socialistic and your revealing your maturity level. I get the feeling you don't think they're being "fair" now and "should just keep the ATB Coins." WOW.
The Mint has been creating "numismatic rarities" for centuries. They knowingly and un-knowingly create them due to a variety of legal, economic, and logistical factors, including outright blunders. This is what makes collecting interesting, educational and fun.
The Mint is about as Capitalistic as you can get in this free market system. Why would they target themselves for destruction, they are in it for their Capitalistic needs-MONEY. I don't get your logic. Some will say that they are the the one doing the price gouging. When I buy from them(or any coin seller) "The Market" will determine the price, and I accept it, if I don't, than I don't buy, it's just that simple.
Welcome to America The Beautiful !!
For those who have said they think the US Mint should be selling bullion directly to the public, do you really want the government to have such easy access to your bullion purchases??? That makes me extremely uncomfortable, and it should make you uncomfortable too.
You are so wrong.. Bullion distributors are NOT agents of the US government. If they were, we would certainly be in more trouble than we are now! The US Mint would sure love for them to be!
What's the difference? It's still going through the US Mint!
"Your being awfully socialistic and your revealing your maturity level. I get the feeling you don't think they're being "fair" now and "should just keep the ATB Coins." WOW."
My friend, I'm very far from being a socialist. As far as maturity level, stooping to peresonal attacks because you do not agree with someone is rather childish & that's all I'll say about that.
"The Mint is about as Capitalistic as you can get in this free market system. Why would they target themselves for destruction, they are in it for their Capitalistic needs-MONEY."
The US Mint has a monopoly as they have no competition. The marketing of bullion versus collectable items from the US Mint are entirely two different things. Collectable items are marketed direct to the public while bullion is sold to distributors for them to market.
"I don't get your logic. Some will say that they are the the one doing the price gouging. When I buy from them(or any coin seller) "The Market" will determine the price, and I accept it, if I don't, than I don't buy, it's just that simple."
Thank you for making my point again! Whether it's the US Mint doing the marketing or a bullion distributor, as you say, "The Market" should determine the price. In fact, there are laws on the books to prevent suppliers from mandating the price on items that they sell to resalers. That's one reason it's refered to as a "FREE market system".
The whole point is this.. The US Mint has no business trying to dictate what bullion resalers have to sell their items for.
"The whole point is this.. The US Mint has no business trying to dictate what bullion resalers have to sell their items for"...not true they have to sell them at comparable prices to other products. My question is simple if its such a free market why can't I buy the bullion at the same price the APs buy them by getting them directly to from the mint? Why the elaborate scheme by only selling them to 11 APS, hell just sell them to me at a 50% markup over the APs or $3 per once. I hate this free market stuff when you have monopolies controlling the system. In other cases its the mint itself that makes the artificial shortage but at least with the mint I have a shot of getting the item before it is jacked up at least 90% by the secondary markets. In the case of these bullion items I never had a shot before they jacked up the price. In atrue free market its not what the market can bear (or afford) it open access to the resources. IE everyone gets a shot at an item at the same price
Programs and procedures aside, I support the mint for stepping into this muddle. The hyperinflation of the ATB prices by APMEX concerned a broad spectrum, across the board, of collectors, investors, and you name it. If it had not the Mint would not have heard of it - there would be no calls made to the customer relations department at the Mint, and APMEX could have proceeded without the slightest of hindrances. How is it that no one has even mentioned that for all practical purposes APMEX and the other distributors were actually using the Mint (and the customers willing to pay a stellar premium) to make a quick buck on "bullion." The market forces (i.e. paying public) must determine the price without artificial interference starting at the initial sales point into the market. The premiums which APMEX added were their own interpretation of the market for these coins and happened within their own cognizance and business plans. The Mint is really the honest broker here and is doing its customers a big favor. I have supported the Mint since 1982 when I first started collecting and will continue to support the Mint regardless. They are part of MY GOVERNMENT and deserve my respect regardless of whether I can make a sizable profit or not. And quite frankly I have done very well with many purchases made with totally innocent interest from the Mint. To name a few, my collection includes the Jackie Robinson commemoratives, the 1995-96 Olympic coins, etc. I have absolutely not even the smallest of issues with the mint. I collect coins, and will continue to purchase what the Mint makes. I support the Mint. They represent the interests of the broad public.
Chill folks. Loose the socialism vs. capitalism talk. We will probably get the deal on Monday. Happy hunting.
I just received my 2010-W proof gold eagles (1/10 and 1/25) on 12/10/10 and noticed that both of the reliefs on obverse and reverse had almost like a sandblasted/ micro beaded surfacing to them. When I compared them to my 2008's, the 2008 proof eagle coins were crisp with detail and did not have that unusual surface. Any ideas? Did the Mint intend this type of surface to be produced; or, am I getting an older die that was used too much and should have been retired earlier? I'm happy to report that the 2010's did not have any milky spots in the fields.
"...not true they have to sell them at comparable prices to other products."
Why? Normally the market spot price plus competition largly determines what bullion sells for. Of course in this case, the bullion version of the ATB coins have become collectables. So, whats wrong with a resaler making more if the public is willing to pay for them & obviously they were since they sold out so fast. I highly suspect that the ones complaining are the ones who did NOT get any of the coins... NOT the ones who did.
"My question is simple if its such a free market why can't I buy the bullion at the same price the APs buy them by getting them directly to from the mint?"
Because the US Mint cannot handle the volume. That's why most everything we buy is typically sold through distributors & then through retailers. A typical distribution path goes like this: manufacturer markets to the distributor, the distibutor markets to the retailer, the retailer markets to the end customer. Everybody in the "path" specializes in what they do which provides excellent products & services to the end customer.
"In a true free market its not what the market can bear (or afford) it open access to the resources. IE everyone gets a shot at an item at the same price."
Not true. You are getting "free market" & "free access" mixed up. It is impossible to have "free access" in any market. There is always going to be an imbalance between supply & demand for some items at various times. Supply, demand & competition are the main things that have always determined market prices. They always have & always will UNLESS you have a repressive government that steps in with rules & regulations. Then you have lost your freedom!
Capitalism & the free market is what built out great country because our forfathers created an environment that allowed them to work. It's not the governments job to set prices on goods & services or try to gurantee access to anything. Their job is to provide peace, security & a healthy financial environment so businesses can thrive.
""...not true they have to sell them at comparable prices to other products."
Why?"
Because it is in the law that makes these coins possible. Pretty simple, really.
Blah blah blah, free market, blah blah blah. Anyone who studies economies knows we don't have a free market, and we never had a free market.
To December 12, 2010 1:20 PM:
Last year the mint changed the "frosting" on the proof sets. The new frosting almost looks artificial, and from what I recall it is computer generated (you can almost make out the scan lines). I haven't heard anything about the gold eagles, but it sounds like the same thing has happened to them. Maybe Michael can shed some light. He does that, you know.
"Blah blah blah, free market, blah blah blah. Anyone who studies economies knows we don't have a free market, and we never had a free market."
Sincerely,
Joseph Stalin
"The whole point is this.. The US Mint has no business trying to dictate what bullion resalers have to sell their items for."
Sincerely,
President of APMEX
Bush turned his back to regulations and look where we are now.If the APs can't make it on 10%we will bail them out, like the rest of the greedy bas@#@s.
Hey Pres - Really?? According to every piece of US Mint, bullion-related legislation ratified since the inception of the programs in 1986, and according to the very specific requirements that every AP Network member must agree to in advance, the Gov't has the authority - AND the responsibility. Certainly hasn't been an issue for the 2+ BILLION, recurring US MINT bullion coins distributed by the AP Network over the last 25 years. Not going to be an issue now.
Keep in mind. You came to us. Don't like the program or the access to the opportunities, then get out. We have three to four others standing in line waiting to take your place.
""Blah blah blah, free market, blah blah blah. Anyone who studies economies knows we don't have a free market, and we never had a free market."
Sincerely,
Joseph Stalin"
Another product of our "Glenn Beck School of No Critical Thinking", where you are taught that if you can't make any coherent arguments and it hurts your brain too much to think, you should just compare everyone else to communists or socialists.
(By the way, communism isn't socialism.)
" Anyone who studies economies knows we don't have a free market, and we never had a free market."
I just made a best offer on a coin. I was given a counter offer a little higher. I then gave my counter offer a little lower. Then the lower price was accepted.
What is that ??
They should just stop making bullion coins period. All they end up being is a bar later anyway once silver reaches prices that make people accept melt price turn ins. Paying a premium for a bullion coin will never make any sense to me. But, watching all these wanna be collectors believe the TPG hype and act like they are more then bullion coins is quite amusing to me. I myself will keep putting my money in truly rare pieces that make a collection second to none and highly desirable. Those are the true coins that no one in their right mind would have melted down. These 5 oz modern day bullion pieces are simply just the new modern day rip off created by thew US Mint IMHO. Even though the mintage is low. In comparison to other 100 and 200 year old pieces. These bullion biscuits will never hold a candle to them.
A 5 oz bullion coin that says quarter dollar on it was enough to make me look the other way. That in itself is completely ignorant.
Here is a thought for anyone wanting to buy one of these modern day bullion pieces. I collect large silver medals that are very rare. I would never by a large silver medal made of .999 silver that was stacked one upon another and then shipped that way.These bullion pieces are almost certainly going to have major problems being stacked in tubes. The weight alone with cause damage when the devices are matched against each other during shipments. Good luck ever seeing one of these bullion pieces that look uncirculated. I may however buy them from the US Mint if they do sell them separately packaged.
"A 5 oz bullion coin that says quarter dollar on it was enough to make me look the other way. That in itself is completely ignorant."
Duh...no more so than a 1 oz gold eagle having a $50 demonination.
The demonination is not the point. I'm glad people like you look the other way.
" Even though the mintage is low. In comparison to other 100 and 200 year old pieces. These bullion biscuits will never hold a candle to them."
How do you know how these may be looked upon in 50-100 years from now.
At the time, those coins were just worth face value. Hindsight is 20-20 and who knows what the future may bring.
At least the gold Eagle has good artists and sculptors behind the history of those coins. These mickey mouse cartoon artists and sculptors of today will never make these bullion biscuits desirable in the future.
That is all a dollar is going to be worth in ten years is a quarter.
Please replace the word socialism with fascism. Big difference. Especially when it comes to government and business. Btw- i hope i get my coins this week.
It may be worth less then that in much less time.
If you were the least bit interested in educating yourself instead of letting Fox News and Glenn Beck do your thinking for you, I have great news. You are on the Internet. You can go look up topics on your own and learn things.
You could always hope for the coin that is on top and on bottom of the tube so at least one side will be nice. LOL.
It amazes me how many people posting here just want to use others quotes to be a jerk and dog them out. Why don't they try to just give their own opinions from their brains instead of just showing their ignorance by criticizing others opinions. These must be the same idiots that paid 2700.00 for a five coin set.
""...not true they have to sell them at comparable prices to other products."
Why? Normally the market spot price plus competition largely determines what bullion sells for."
A. Why, is simple they signed a contract agreement to do so when they charged a market rate they violated their contract. If you had purchased these coins from APMEX at $1,300, but then discovered that APMEX actually charged you $2000, would call this free market action or fraud? The mint sold them the bullion based on the fact that they were to sell it as bullion. This is per contract. They violated that contract once they sold them as collector items. Free market has nothing to do with it the mint stepped in because of contract violations. Using your manufacture distributor retailer analogy. What happens in a free market when a manufacturer discovered that the distributors are violation of their contracts?
December 12, 2010 6:20 PM
Now at least we know what you watch every day.
To Mr. wanna be collector at December 12, 2010 4:56 PM
"They should just stop making bullion coins period. All they end up being is a bar later anyway once silver reaches prices that make people accept melt price turn ins."
"Paying a premium for a bullion coin will never make any sense to me."
"I myself will keep putting my money in truly rare pieces that make a collection second to none and highly desirable. Those are the true coins that no one in their right mind would have melted down."
Yeah, maybe they should do that--melt them down like they did in the 1930's("bullion"/monitary gold), even make them illegal as they did in 1934. I of course will keep some of this "bullion" hidden for a while. Then later you will find them highly desirable, keep putting your money into these truly rare pieces for a collection second to none and paying huge premiums for these "bullion" coins that no one in their right mind should have melted down.
Hmmm. Am I seeing a pattern here ?
Don't you see ? The pieces you now buy and hold dear were once regular old bullion money that came across unusual circumstances--just like these ATB bullion coins!
Melted down later or not, I'm in for a couple of sets.
"A. Why, is simple they signed a contract agreement to do so when they charged a market rate they violated their contract. If you had purchased these coins from APMEX at $1,300, but then discovered that APMEX actually charged you $2000, would call this free market action or fraud? The mint sold them the bullion based on the fact that they were to sell it as bullion. This is per contract. They violated that contract once they sold them as collector items. Free market has nothing to do with it the mint stepped in because of contract violations. Using your manufacture distributor retailer analogy. What happens in a free market when a manufacturer discovered that the distributors are violation of their contracts?"
With all due recpect, how do you know what is in the contract? While I do not know for sure, I boubt that it states in the contract that the bullion dealers can or cannot sell at a certain premium. Why? Because if that was in the contract, all the US Mint wouild have to do is enforce the contract, not issue a mandate to try & force the bullion distributors to limit their premiun to a certain amount, as they have done. Yes, the bullion distributors do have to agree to a contract & that's fine as they have the CHOICE to agree to the contract or not to. In this case, it is very likely that the US Mint changed the terms of the contract after the fact in the form of a mandate/regulation, which by the way, is the favorite way for socialists to get what they want.
Instead of buying these coins, maybe I should buy some stock in cheese, what with all of the whining going on here lately!
Let's have a party! I'll take some biscuits (real ones) too. ROTFLMAO ;)
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