Mint News Blog 2011 Survey
As a way of wrapping up 2010 and looking ahead to 2011, I have created a survey for Mint News Blog readers. The questions are related to US Mint numismatic products, coins, and precious metals.
Last year about 700 people responded to the survey, providing some interesting insights and surprisingly accurate predictions. This year, the survey is a little bit shorter with fewer open ended responses to provide better focus for the coverage of results.
Take the Mint News Blog 2011 Survey
The survey will remain open through January 9, 2011. Only one response per person is allowed. Coverage of the survey responses will take place on Mint News Blog throughout the month January.
Happy New Year Everyone!
Labels: Survey
posted by Mint News Blog @ 9:59 AM
127 Comments:
Nice Job with the survey, you are the best Michael. This is a great site that you put a lot of work into and I think many of us appreciate your efforts and timely news blogs. Happy holidays to you and your family!!
Michael,
Why is the mint selling 1000's of the 5 oz silver Parks coins to HSN (Home Shopping Network) but people on the West Coast can't get even one set? Called the Mint today and they confirmed that information.
Michael, as always , great job on this board and all the fun and interesting things that happen here .I look forward to the coming year , as well as wish you and yours a happy & safe holiday season..
Happy New Year to you all and especially to Michael and family.
ATB bullion coins price in the intermediate term will depend on the mintage of the second set and the bullion availability. If there are huge rumblings that the silver market may be short of material I wouldn't be suprised to see another event like this year. Michael-Would your ATB prediction have changed had you known the mintages to be lower than the expected 100,000? Anyone who follows the metals market also understands that, speculation or not, platinum production as well as palladium production is going to go down much further on a yearly basis and that these may shoot up faster thatn most people realize. I might be inclined to grab another 2008 w set. I also like the australian series I chinese zodiac set. Low mintage and an increasing following from the Asian market will make these long time winners. I really think the mint should make a native tribes series that focus's on the iconography and cultural heritage of native americans. Maybe make a chiefs silver set or a tribal commerative set. Lots of collectors I believe feel that connection to American History.
Michael, I'm fairly new to coin collecting,about 2 years, anyway when I first started I found this blog, I started going to it everyday, this blog has helped me so much with my hobby, you and all the fellow readers have been a great help for newbees. Thanks so much for all you do for all of us, and thanks to all the readers, I wish all of you a great and safe New Year
happy new year! thanks for running such a great blog!
thank you michael!!
EvilFlipper, that's an excellent idea about a native tribes series. I think that would have been much more interesting than the First Spouse series.
A native american tribe set would be awesome. How Bad Ass are the Golden Buffalo's? Right! Native Americans are the perfect blend of nature and humans, and that raw nature makes for a beautiful coin. It sure beat a girl in a boy scout uniform.
about Silver......I see silver at $100.00 and climbing before year end 2011. god bless to all. because you only need 3 things clothing,food, and shelter. hope you all have a good year! peace.
I am watching HSN right now, and that jerk is bragging about how he was able to get over 200 atb sets in MS69!!
THE MINT BETTER DO AN AUDIT OF ALL 9 APS AND IMMEDIATELY REMOVE WHICHEVER COMPANY SOLD THEM HUNDREDS OF SETS - OR COMPANIES IF MORE THAN ONE WAS IN ON IT!
Sitting here in NY watching the hoopla before the New Year ball drops on TV and just spotted the Coin Sales Show on HSN. These clowns are selling and proportedly already have NGC & ANACS graded 2011 bullion ASE's before the Mint supposedly released them. Something stinks here. Hmmmmmm, received, graded, inserted in slabs, etc, offered for sale. There needs to be an investigation, but by whom? Everyone is on the payroll it seems.
Regarding the 5 Oz coins, so much for the mint rules, look at HSN and Coin Vault, i guess money and connections are stronger then mint rules,so much for the poor public, so what they will cry and scream and they rich will do what they always do best, get richer
It is plain to see that money talks and bull crap rules with HSN. They have probably gathered over 200 people probably their telemarketing crew among others to place single household orders with one of the APs.I'm sure most of the people who ordered for them got some sort of payoff which was probably a measly 50.00 bonus.
These scum of the earth coin scammers are the exact ones my customers curse at when they find out how badly they were ripped off because they thought they were a reputable organization.
I among many other dealers who are known for giving fair and honest deals on coins with a modest profit are completely over this all out monopoly handed down by the APs involved for the kick backs they are obviously getting from organizations like HSN.
It is also very clear that the TPGs are in on this as well with their total commitment to making sure that HSN gets these graded slabs out first. How they can even begin to call these coins early release is impossible according to TPG rules on this type of bogus labeling.
All and all I see this hurting them all in the near future with many dealers and collectors fighting back to get the hobby back to honesty and integrity where it should have remained before the TPGs raped the hobby with gimmick ridden scams.
In 2011 I think it is time to put a stop to all of the greed ridden madness and bring back our hobby to dealers who are known for honest deals that make our hobby grow to the next generation with a hobby that is once again cherished for all to be able to learn history from at an affordable and reasonable rate of exchange.
I wish everyone a Happy New Year and thank you very much Michael for all you do to create a place for people to become more educated in our hobby. Since 1999 this hobby has changed for the worse with scams, gimmicks, hype and out right ripoffs. Make it your resolution to do your best to get this hobby back to what it once was.
I am growing tire of being the barer of bad news to all these people who come to me pissed that they were ripped off by outfits like HSN and others. It honestly never was this way before and I really hope it can change or I'm just going to go to my grave taking a dead hobby with me. What a shame that truly will be.
Happy New Year,
Honest Coin Dealer
To Honest Coin Dealer: exactly my feelings. As a collector, accumulating coins, sets, bags, and most Mint former offerings since 1958, I am disgusted with the scammers, special label baloney, and fancy sticker crap. We have a hobby that has denegrated to a point wherein the box, carton, bag seal and "date" means more than it's contents. How sad. The "let's hook the rubes" salespitchmen on TV is truly sad to see. Twisted phrases, half statements to give false impressions, etc. is common but sad. Well, these dishonest types won't hook me, I only spend my money where it's treated best. ~ Grandpa
I'm all for making money... but the HSN stuff smells fishy. I'm honest in my deals. If I make a bad deal and lose money it's on me. If someone overpays at an auction it's on them.But if the dealer does some insider trading that's where the free market becomes the nepotistic market. It's a dog eat cat eat mouse world...Speculate accordingly.
And Happy new year.
Coin Collectors & 6:31PM
There should be an investigation into the handling of the Park 5oz coins. I'm calling the Mint Directors office Monday AM and am not going to give up till I get an answer regarding the violation of the "One set per household rule". I suggest all coin collectors and honest dealers do the same. I see no reason for the AP's to exist. Why doesn't the mint just sell the bullion and collector coins themselves? They could offer all the coins without the middle-man who only jacks up the price. Collectors and dealers could then pay less and everyone would benefit. The Mint could tack on a 1% extra premium and make a little extra to help with the National Debt. Let's get rid of the APs.
I don't understand how Coin Vault and HSN are getting the coins. No AP is accepting orders. APMEX shipped a very small number of pre-sales, certainly not enough for Coin Vault and HSN to stock inventory. Some unscrupulous AP must be leaking the coins to them. The Mint needs to immediately bring the program to a screeching halt and perform an audit of ALL APs.
This is a great blog! Keep up the good work and Happy New Year to you, Michael, and all of the readers of your blog!
This is a great blog! Keep up the good work and Happy New Year to you, Michael, and all of the readers of your blog!
@Leo S
I said that the congress should check into the insider sales of the ATB's .
No different then insider trader could lead to JAIL time
However many HSN and COIN VAULT crooks have in hand, there is no way to get them back.
But, what is needed is for the Mint to begin a full audit of all 9 APs beginning in mid January to find out if the coins were obtained within the rules or not... I suspect they were not.
I could understand getting a few dozen sets maybe, if they had employees ordering one each - but to come up with OVER 200 SETS MS69 AND HUNDREDS OF MORE SETS IN OTHER GRADES... all at a point when the public cannot access any of the coins, only 1 AP has released 1,000 sets... and they have 500 sets already graded? NOT POSSIBLE UNLESS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY TOOK PLACE AS FAR AS I CAN TELL!
I just want the crooked company or companies that very likely helped HSN/COIN VAULT break the rules to be permanately kicked out of the AP program with the next 6 weeks at the latest - and then the AP way of distribution must be stopped as well, and all bullion sold directly from mint website to everyone!
The root to all Evil is money. HSN, The Coin Vault, and all the flippers ripping people off have proved this.
Anyone see what the 5 oz ATB sets are selling for on HSN and Coin Vault?
Here's how HSN did it.....very clever!!!! I had taped the whole presentation, and after the ball dropped, I played it over & over & over. "Now you see it, now you don't."
They kept turning the televised slab over & over, and the camera repeatedly paned to the label. All the time, the taller guy kept the spiel going. The chubby guy on the left just stood there grinning. Each time the camera focused on the slab, the tall guys finger covered the DATE (2011). All you ever really could see was the BS grading description label and perfect shot of the reverse side.
It's my belief you never were looking at an actual 2011 NGC graded piece at all. Probably it was any other year's coin that was just used for "advertising purposes".
That's how they step just outside the area of fraud and potential prosecution. That in itself is pathettic, but IMHO legal. That's what I saw, and think that's what viewers saw. That in itself is a mild form of scam to me.
A silver/gold series commemorating native tribes and chiefs is an excellent idea. I'd be in for that one.
The MINT needs to start selling bullion coins directly to the public. On an early coin vault they set the price of a 20 coin roll of 2011 silver bullion eagles at $999.95--lately they don't even show a price.--these idiots set the prices and we can't get our hands on them unless you want to pay inflated prices. Upon selling over 34,000,000 '10 bullion eagles just think how many more people they could put to work making packaging, handling, along with the increased business for the USPS and whatever % profit for the Mint to continue on with their endeavors.
Yes, your right, they don't have ANY graded coins yet, but they will soon. Those are doctored pictures and funny camera work. This is more of a pre-sale. I once bought a PF-69 gold buff(mistake) on CSN(same as CV, HSN) and it took them over a month to get it to me. Same with these graded coins-people will wait a while for these to ship. The APs now have these coins in hand, they're just waitig, thinking... The APs aren't accepting and shipping orders until approx. mid Jan. and only taking orders from their "established dealers" All of these coin shows are these dealers. This blows the one set per household rule completely out of the water. Here's a quote from Dillon Gage when you simply try to sign up to get your "one set per houshold"..."Please do NOT submit an application for a FizTrade account if you are only interested in obtaining the "America the Beautiful" coins. FizTrade is primarily intended for dealers who wish to maintain an ongoing trading relationship with Dillon Gage Metals." The average Joe so far cannot even qualify to buy their one set from any of these APs(maybe APX if they do what they did for the lucky ones) This is not what the Mint has required from them !!
Total BS.
HSN should get rid of Coin vault guys. Call to HSN could go a long way
Please do not forget to call your Congress on Jan 4 2011.
It's my belief you never were looking at an actual 2011 NGC graded piece at all. Probably it was any other year's coin that was just used for "advertising purposes".
What are you talking about? This is a one-year-only item and this is the inaugural year. The Mint has never made a 3" diameter coin before. What other year coin could they be showing?
And I don't know why you're talking about 2011. Nobody cares about the 2011 coins which haven't even been minted yet.
5000 dollars will get the 5 coin set i69 on hsn. These are about as far away from a coin as you can get
"What are you talking about? This is a one-year-only item and this is the inaugural year. The Mint has never made a 3" diameter coin before. What other year coin could they be showing?"
He's talking about the 2011 ASE, not the ATB.
The time to complain about the ATB Silver Bullion coins is Monday, people. The phone number for the Mint Office of Legal Council is 202-354-7280. There is no way HSN and Coin Vault should have these number of sets available already when the APs are not taking orders from the general public.
Someone has bought 3 sets of the troublemakers (5 oz ATB) from MintProducts. Last night they showed 8 sets available, and today 5 left in the drop down column. $3000.00, my foot, I wouldn't buy them for spot !!!!!!!!!! I think I will join Grandpa in a boycott of Mint offerings.
If you want to laugh and/or cry, go to the HSN Home Page and search on MS Coins. The results will include the graded, single ATB Bullions as well as their graded 5-coin set. Click on the link to their 5-coin set, where you will find a portion of the actual broadcast sales segment. Holy Cow!!! Where is that fine line between fact and fantasy. Sadly, they'll sell every damn piece.
If you haven't seen the video previously, take the 18 minutes to do so.
I'm calling "Shenanigans" today, and my Senator on Monday.
HSN is typically very loose with their facts and comments. They stated the 2010 silver eagle proofs were sold out about a month before they actually sold out. Actually their coin show is entertaining just to hear the mis information broadcast.
We seem to go back to those 5 ounce quarters that no one will get because their were to few made and are priced for only the greedy rich. Remember in the early 90's when baseball cards were all the rage. Then came in greedy businessman and destroyed that hobby by hype. Guess what's happening now.
Supply killed the baseball card industry, anybody could produce a baseball card. Only an authorized government agency, aka the US Mint, can created legal tender currency. If we see private minted coins introduced that start skyrocketing in prices, then we'll know we are in trouble. I don't think we are there yet and there is room to grow still.
True that anyone could make a baseball card but companies still try to alter coins and currency. Look at HSN warping a silver eagle into 2009 Proof silver eagle and selling it for $100 dollars or I now see on TV a regular $2 bill being overprinted with the national park themes. I know this type of thing has gone on before as with gold plated quarters and such but people buy these thinking they'll be worth something because some idiot says it will be on TV and they have no general knowledge about coins and get ripped off. I see are government mint may be doing the same thing with these 5 ounce quarters because what they should have done is not make them in the first place as bullion. Make them available only through the mint. Sort of like the Lincoln chronicles set. The only thing more I can say is that somebody is getting kickbacks.
"A silver/gold series commemorating native tribes and chiefs is an excellent idea. I'd be in for that one."
Now that sounds like a winner, and I'd love to see some of the old late 19th century paper currency engravings adopted to today's bills while they're at it. I want to see more of the old west flavor of things.
Jim L.
Michael and Fellow Collectors
Please review the following proposal and comment. Right now there are 11 APs spotted arount the country. The U.S Government has 12 Federal Reserve Banks consentrated in generally the same areas of the country. Why couldn't we lobby the Mint and our Representatives to have the Banks sell the bulk bullion coin orders to the dealers and the Mint sell bullion and collector coins to the collectors.
The local AP in California is selling bullion at $34.43 (silver), $1480 (gold) and 1862 (Platinum). That is a markup of $3.50, $59, and $89 respectively. If the Mint sold them direct to the dealers and collectors they could tack on a preium of $2, $30, and $45 respectively and the dealers would save half the premium they are paying now. I checked the most recent sales for bullion silver and gold and if you multiply the above mentioned Mint premiums by the sales this year you get a profit of $69.3 million for silver and $34.3 million for gold, for a total increase in revenue to the mint of $103.6 million.
It seems to me that the Mint could then hire 10 additional employees at each Federal Reserve Bank to handle the ordering and shipping. Even it the Fed paid the new employees $100,000/year, that would only be $12 million. That would leave the Mint a profit of $91.6 million to help pay off the monsterous national debt this country has accurred.
If this was feasible, the dealers and collectors would get a break on price and the Mint would make and extra $100 million. Also, if the Mint ran into production problems with an offering, like the 5oz silver coins, they could just offer them through the regular mint sales procedure and we wouldn't have the mess we have now with them. The TV sales groups like HSN and Coin Vault would have to comply with the Mint limits like everybody else.
This sounds like a win - win for everyone except the AP's. If all you collectors and Micheal could comment on this and refine it, maybe we can change the system and make things better for everyone.
4:38, I do agree that the attempts at adding "value" via third party grading of new products and other means is a very bad trend that is harmful. I stay away from those areas of collecting. I hope they don't bring the entire ship down.
Entire Statement from Dillon Gage Metals:
"!!! IMPORTANT NOTICE ABOUT THE "AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL" 5 OUNCE SILVER COINS !!!
Please Note: The "America the Beautiful" 5 ounce silver coins will NOT be available for sale through the FizTrade website. Due to their extremely limited availability and the restrictions the U.S. Mint has imposed on their sale, Dillon Gage Metals will be setting up an alternate ordering process for the "America the Beautiful" coins. For the latest information on the ordering process for these coins, please monitor the Dillon Gage Current News page - all updates will be posted there as information becomes available.
Please do NOT submit an application for a FizTrade account if you are only interested in obtaining the "America the Beautiful" coins. FizTrade is primarily intended for dealers who wish to maintain an ongoing trading relationship with Dillon Gage Metals."
I am a very small dealer with 30 very pissed off regular single household customers that wanted to buy the ATB 5 oz coins. They come to me on a regular weekly basis.
Each customer was informed well in advance of ordering the ATBs from APMEX. After my 30 orders were canceled. All my customers were very disappointed because many did not have the time to sit at the computer to make the initial order. I have worked many years to maintain a trusting relationship with each customer and only planned on making a 75.00 profit on each sale to cover my taxes and expenses with a very modest 1700.00 profit on 30 sets.
These sets would have gone to one household each. Although my customers do maintain a good relationship with me after all this. Letting my customers down has been very disheartening to say the least.
To see HSN and Coin Vault and the many flippers take advantage of this situation is a huge slap in this hobbies face.
I'm fed up with seeing new customers come to me asking me why they can not get at least what they originally paid to places like HSN or ebay and others. These type of people only have one interest in mind. And it is not the interest of fair trade to customers to grow a sound customer base.
To the gentleman who compared this hobby to the baseball card hobby and the gentleman who said there are not enough coins being produced. Since the 1980s there has been an influx of increased mintage from private and world minting organizations through out the world. The numbers minted by all are now staggering and could very well be what kills this hobby just like baseball cards.
The only thing different that may save this hobby is the inevitable shortage of materials which showed it's ugly head in 2009. On the flip side of this with no pun intended. There needs to be regulations set much like the same regulation set for financial advisers. All transactions should be set under a no cash transaction setting with wiring and laundering eliminated.
If these very simple laws are not set to regulate this ever increasing downward spiral out of control industry. We will see a complete collapse of this hobby through falling interests and rising unaffordable prices from unforeseen shortages.
Please call your congressman and the US Mint to lobby and enact new legislation to regulate this industry based on fair trade. this will also mean an elimination of all hyped up TPG unfounded price guides and fraudulent labellings.
It is time that all collectors and their private dealers form an alliance to fight what has been slowly deteriorating this hobby before it is to late. Feed your mind and buy a coin to learn it's history and pass that history to the next generation.
For anyone who missed these HSN scumbags. Here is the youtube link to their pathetic admittance of being able to obtain 210 sets from one of the APs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8sbj8fqqc
This is without a doubt a televised admission of guilt which clearly makes one of the 9 APs negligent in defrauding a government contract which should be legally punishable by law.
I urge everyone to call your local congressman and the US Mint to forward the footage of proof and demand action immediately.
Another thing that will kill this hobby and no one seems to care (not collectors)is counterfeiting from China and other countries. I think its time we should start counterfeiting there money and see how they like it. I actually can't tell from a real coin from a counterfeit anymore. Some these coins are made with silver but have a rare date and the weight is as close if not exactly the same. I for one am not sure if would buy anything old anymore because of unknown origin. I am sure I probably already have fakes and don't even know it.
If the mint will just get a audit going of all 9 APs here soon, I doubt they will have trouble catching the crook who did this.
It would take a lot of trouble for the AP who broke the rules to cover this up, I bet it would take less than an hour to prove which one did it:
- Make each AP provide Names and Phone Numbers for each of 3,000 orders
- Make each AP provide 3,000 receipts
- Make each AP provide 3,000 tracking numbers for 3,000 shipments
... and the list of things that will easily tell who broke the rules just goes on and on - I gurantee the AP that broke the rules was WAY too lazy to (and its not really even possible to) make enough fraud information to give the mint if they are audited!
Start the audits in 2 weeks, and immediately remove and ban the offending company or companies.
Then, before 2011 is over, the Mint needs to set their website up to be the only bullion distribution organization, so we can have a free marker for the first time!
That is a very valid point and Ebay is the main cause of counterfeiting in the United states. I belong to a group who polices ebay for counterfeit sales.
As a group we go after many people from many countries including the U.S. who are able to list at will counterfeits of all kinds. The biggest problems come from China where counterfeiting is perfectly legal.
Even when these companies from China and other nations are exposed for selling non HPA compliant copy coins on ebay. Ebay does virtually nothing to shut these companies down. The even sadder part is when these non HPA compliant counterfeits are purchased as evidence and sent to places like the Secret Service and Customs. They do absolutely nothing to shut these companies down or fine ebay for allowing these completely illegal sales.
PCGS ANACS and NGC slabs are also being counterfeited with counterfeits inside of them. In this business of coins in today's world. You are better off to get the best education in counterfeit detection on any older coins and even on some known modern day counterfeits.
Knowing the device designs, fields, collars, Denticles, and edges of any coins you are interested in buying along with weight and calibration sizes is of the most importance. Many time the details in devices will give up a counterfeit or weight or size. The counterfeiters rarely get all details exact which makes them easier to detect.
There needs to be many new laws put in place to combat the large amount of counterfeits coming into this country. Canada is a good model to improve upon in this instance.
Since the introduction of TPGs. This country has become lazy in relying on them to differentiate the counterfeits for collectors who lack the knowledge in detection. I do believe that if a TPG would concentrate more on fraud detection and less of fraudulent hype driven labeling. They may actually begin to get some respect from more collectors.
We need to as a group come up with a new bill that completely rewrites the HPA laws and get this hobby and country back to what it once was. This hobby used to be fun and affordable for all. That has completely changed now due to dishonesty and greed. If nothing is done to stop all these problems that plague this hobby. I am sad to say that our hobby may die.
I hope every ones New Years has been what you expect out of your life. Lets make a combined resolution to clean this hobby up and make it what it once was.
Honest Coin Dealer.
Passing legislation or conducting an invesrigation on a HOBBY during a time of recession and high unemployment would be completely irresponsible of our congress which needs to focus on much more important issues. The hobby needs to find a way to police itself for now. I agree something needs to be done and some things need to change.
Unless new laws are enacted and policing of these new laws are applied. There will be no change. The HPA laws have needed to be changed ever since countries like China have completely disregarded them.
Our biggest problem that has killed our country is becoming a service only country. We need to get our industries back in full production within our borders to combat the debt that has swallowed up our nation. The time for lazy greed ridden servicing has to stop and we need to get off our butts and do some labor within our own borders or we will surely not last much longer.
It is not just conducting an investigation on one hobby that is needed. It is passing new legislation on all trade which does involve hobbies and retailers that is in need of serious changes.
It just not the hobby but our own national currency. Don't you think people counterfeit everyday paper money for there own gains? Why should we let some country or person make a 1893-S Morgan dollar and rip them off thousands of dollars. I think that is called grand theft.
"Passing legislation or conducting an invesrigation on a HOBBY during a time of recession and high unemployment would be completely irresponsible of our congress which needs to focus on much more important issues. The hobby needs to find a way to police itself for now. I agree something needs to be done and some things need to change."
2 THINGS:
1. No, it wouldn't. It's their Constitutionally mandated job. Congress is supposed to (and does)do a lot more than worry about jobs, whether you like that fact or not.
2. Congress doesn't really have to get involved, even though it's okay if they do. The Mint itself can handle straightening this ATB stuff out for now, then Congress would need to pass a law to stop the current AP distribution network from being required. Nothing major.
Be careful what you ask for from Washington, you may get it. Maybe listing our coins on our income tax with ATF guidelines would make some feel protected.
Here is the direct number for the
bullion program. 202-354-6829
call now leave a message or call live on Monday (do both)
Maybe it should be the Bull program
lol
Yes, look how much complaining to the Mint did last time! That's a great idea. At least before the public could purchase the coins. People are begging to pay $1395 now. Looks like Apmex was doing what was in the best interests of the public by offering them at a reasonable markup. Does paying $3000-$4000 for a set seem reasonable now? That's the result of all the complaining from before. Thanks a lot to those that cried over your spilled milk. God help us, if you complain again, who knows how much worse you'll make it.
I agree with 7:51. Lots of complaining led to limited access to the ATB sets. No matter where you got them, these were gonna sell for a mark up. The majority of the primary dealers weren't setup to deal directly to the public. All in all it made a bad situation worse. I'm super happy I got it from APMEX the second i heard it was for sale. The market was already determining that these were gonna sell for a premium anyway. Instead of the 500$ premium from apmex they now fetch vastly more. The fact that the mintage was so low should have set off alarm bells that these would be in high demand. There wasn't much to buy from the mint this year. I think the price will be highly volatile for the short term due to the uncertainty of availability. The primary dealers WILL find a workaround no matter WHAT the mint does (Saying goes- you can ban it all, an addict will find a way). It's the nature of supply and demand. Is it reasonable that these go for so much... maybe, maybe not. But it is what it is. I saw a short term opportunity and took it and scored nicely. Not HSN nice but still booked a nice profit. Now I'm looking at a better 1877 indian head. Thats how the game is played for better or for worse.
To those that complained loud and hard when the ATB fiasco started....you have my "THANKS". When we start accepting being screwed by the "big boys" just because it's easier than speaking up and causing problems we're all losers. We've been rolling over so long that they, "the big boys" think they can ignore contracts, and ignore the law. I'll make my phone calls Monday, and those of you content with the current system of "the rich getting richer and the rest of us getting the shaft" just sit back and enjoy being used.
No, actually I already have a set and will enjoy watching the complainers continue to try to circumvent the law of supply and demand and beg the government for a handout by buying something of very low supply at an artificially low price. The more complaints that are made, the more awareness and demand will be created and the more I'll make on my set. THANKS whiners!!
7:51, To be honest with you. I lost interest in the 5 oz. bullion right at the beginning because the way it was handled right from the start. I had a better chance of getting hit by lightning than actually having any hope of even getting one of these. I think that is the underlining problem that everyone has.
Both sides need hankies - one for the tears and the other for the coughs. Perhaps a 3 incher will fall out for the lucky ones.
To: 9:33 blogger.
i agree 110% with you. The only people I see saying that everyone is crying are the ones who got to rich to quick off of this whole mess. There is no compassion or caring when it involves greed. You can tell that by the tone of their greedy type. I still maintain my statement that APMEX broke bullion selling rules. They plainly asked and expected to much for the sets. Had they of taken their usual profits or just gone by the current US Mint mark ups but stayed a little lower. Then this probably would have never happened. Then on top of all of that. Many of the greedy TPG authorized dealers and other wanna be coin dealers made completely outrageous demands on presale buy it now prices.. There is blame as well to go to the idiot buyers who fell for all this greed in action. Ed Moy made it clear that this was price gouging. Instead of making good on following new contracts. The APs have still at this time chosen to keep their sales private which was not what the new contract stated. That is a serious violation of the new contract. It's pure and simple. If you want to play by the rules then you keep your playing license. If not then you lose your license to no longer steal. I for one will be happy to see all the APs that kept the sales private lose their license. My phone calls will happen early and I know people that will take action on this situation. I know that this ordeal is far from over. Heads will roll. That I can promise you and it won't only be Ed Moys head this time.
An AP, HSN or TPG being greedy is different than a member of the public that buys one set and profits handsomely. I have not sold my set...yet. I have yet to decide if I will. I have no problem with an individual collector buying and quickly selling for a profit (large, small or medium) to fund other purchases. That's the way a good individual collector rolls. More power to those that did this. For those that didn't pay attention during the 19 hours these were up for sale...the early bird gets the worm, better luck next time.
"An AP, HSN or TPG being greedy is different than a member of the public that buys one set and profits handsomely."
Listen to yourself. It was clearly stated that 1399.99 was price gouging on these sets. For anyone to ask more only makes them look worse in my book.
All this free market mumbo jumbo is bull hockey. What we witnessed was a price setting at gouging rates. And if anyone asked more. Then that is exactly what they did. GOUGE with GREED.
There is nothing you can say that will make me feel any different. These APs and all the records need to to thoroughly investigated and heads need to roll.
"Be careful what you ask for from Washington, you may get it. Maybe listing our coins on our income tax with ATF guidelines would make some feel protected."
That is a great idea. Then maybe all these flipper wanna be dealers will have to actually pay taxes on their profits like real honest dealers have to. Oh that's right. Why should we expect them to be honest. After all, they love being able to turn greedy profits into nicer 1877 Indian heads. LOL
I say take the 1877 Indian head from them after they get burned not paying taxes on profits and sell it to pay off the national debt.
Pay and claim on my taxes every year. I play fair but I'll flip something evil ;)
I'm sure you will say that to paypal when they send you your 1099 this year :)
Figured there would be some who would like more government in their lives, picking winners...and losers. At this pace it's going to be easier to collect guns than coins. As they say, this ain't your grandpa's hobby anymore. Just issue me what you think I should have from the mint and be done with it.
My 5 ounce ATB coins are growing more valuable by the day....thanks Apmex for making these available when no one else would.
Does everyone know that PayPal will be sending 1099s to everyone for all money they pay you in 2011?
Hope you are saving the receipts when you buy stuff to prove your cost. Otherwise it's all taxable!
Buy a coin for $1000 and sell it for $1100? Pay tax on $1100 (if you don't have your receipt!)
Hope and change!!!
LOL that in it self will get rid of more then half of the greedy flippers. I'm loving it.
To Jan. 2 @ 2:10 pm,
You had better sell the coins now, before it all comes crashing down! "Strike while the iron's hot" is my motto!
By the way, PayPal only has to issue a 1099 for sellers who receive at least $20,000 or have more than 200 transactions in the year. As long as you come in under those levels, they don't have to send one.
However, we all should report our hobby income and pay our taxes on it anyway, "snitch" form or not!
"By the way, PayPal only has to issue a 1099 for sellers who receive at least $20,000 or have more than 200 transactions in the year. As long as you come in under those levels, they don't have to send one."
It will not be paypal you are going to have to worry about when the IRS gets your name from an AP list. You better have your records straight if you bought or buy any of the ATBs from the APs. Because the hot iron of the IRS will burn you deep evil flippers.
I bought a set from APMEX, and alredy sold it. I will pay my tax on that gain willingly, so I don't have to worry about the IRS seeing my name from an authorized purchaser list.
Just because I'm an "Evil Flipper" doesn't mean I think I'm above the tax laws!
I have yet to see anyone say that they paid 1500.00 or more and feel like they got a great deal. That tells me everything about the true value of these coins. All the rest is pure bull crap.
I sold a bunch of these coins for over $1500, and I feel like I got a great deal. Does that count?
You admitting that you sold more then one set only means that your one of the ones that broke the rules to illegally benefit and contribute to the problem of this hobby. So in my book NO it does not count.
But your arrogance to think it counts does make you look bad. And that does count. Thanks for showing your true colors.
Perhaps if your telling the truth we will read about your name in the investigation. You could elaborate and let us all know how you magically obtained more then one set to sell and what AP assisted you to do this. At the very least it would be entertaining to see your response.
His bunch is probably only 5. That would mean 5 in a bunch I guess. Because I'm positive that he wouldn't admit to buying more then one set from an AP at this stage in the game.
Take my little profit and extend somones uneployment for three years. That's the America I served and fought for. It's a sad day when profits are evil and folks think others are entitled to their labors. Just hoped coin collectors where more understanding of personal property.
" It's a sad day when profits are evil and folks think others are entitled to their labors."
A sad day indeed.
I have a theory about where HSN and others are getting their 5 ounce ATB bullions.
EBAY!!!
I truly have nothing against the seller making money off Ebay... you put it up there for auction and it ends up at $3000. To that I say, WELL DONE!
But the real puzzle to me has always been WHO is paying these outrageous prices? And doing it consistently? Sure, a number of guys with some money to burn are buying some. But it just seems that most of these guys would have bought them directly from the ATP, not Ebay. But then you have this one per household limit. Yes, you can get around this by getting friends and family and employees to buy... but thats only going to go so far as well.
So, the question is... how do you get a consistent flowing stream of product to resell on these coin TV shows? Then it just seems to be obvious. If someone is willing to buy, Ebay will have it... even if it is at a HUGE markup.
The prices on TV and on sites like Chattanooga are around $4000 or so. Ebay sales have rarely gone ABOVE $3000. So, that's AT LEAST a $1000 profit. Not bad. And if you have your own inside access to a grading company (like ANACS), get them slabbed and you may be able to up the price even more.
So, then why buy from HSN for such a huge markup (over buying it over Ebay). Well, for one... some of the audience members aren't really that computer savvy, and two... they don't trust buying from some unknown person on Ebay, but they would trust a big name coin dealer (either on TV or online or in person).
Thoughts?
I expect to see a lot of news that the investigation on these ATBs will begin soon.Looking on ebay there are very few for sale. The ATBs seem to be showing up in larger numbers by places like HSN and others who have clearly broken the US Mint rules of the contract. APMEX has repeatedly stalled the sale saying every week that they will be selling them that week but never have. Something stinks here and the investigation will uncover a lot of APs breaking their contracts which will cause them to lose their AP status.
Anyone know who the next puppet director will be of the US Mint? I think Ed Moy got fed up with seeing his products get bastardized by high pricing. I don't blame him for resigning. I can only hope we get a director that will stand up for the collectors and not just someone that gives all the deals to the monopoly APs who have consistently made sure the TPG authorized dealers get it first to screw the collectors with hype and plastic slab over pricing. .
I don't expect the Mint to do anything. Moy resigned and the new director will want to look forward to their own regime and legacy and not want to look back on anyone else's mess. He/she will likely talk about how next year will be different and talk about future changes rather than looking backward.
The only problem with that theory is the fact that the new US Mint director with inherit a present day mess of a situation involving these ATBs. That will be their first test.
How so? The coins are out the door and long gone from the Mint. The policy was stated by the outgoing Mint director. The new director will only concern himself with the future distribution.
People asked for someone's head to roll for this ATB mess and Moy's head did roll, whether it was directly related to this or not. From the new Mint director's eyes this situation is done.
what's the latest on th 5 oz. silver quarter? are any of the authorized dealers selling the coins or just sitting on them?
"People asked for someone's head to roll for this ATB mess and Moy's head did roll, whether it was directly related to this or not. From the new Mint director's eyes this situation is done."
How wrong you are. This whole mess will not just simply go away that easily. This is far from over.
We'll see won't we?
Looks like you can add the 4 coin gold eagle set to the list of sold out items from the mint.
Michael & Collectors
Just got off the phone with the Mint and am waiting on them to call me back. Went through 4 cycles of press 1, press 2 and left a message at 202-354-6829. No one at the other numbers I tried seems to know anything and they shuffle you off to another number. I have my doubts about a call back, but I'll wait a while longer. If anyone has a good number, please post.
"From the new Mint director's eyes this situation is done."
ROFLMAO. That has got to be the wishes of all the APs sitting on these coins as they secretly leak out 200 and 300 at a time to companies like HSN. If that happens you will see many collectors decide to stop collecting and if the present day situation of price gouging continues. You will see coin collecting as a whole begin to die.
I dont do anything different than any normal sane coindealer/businessowner does. I buy low and sell for a profit. How is that ruining the hobby? If you're a business owner complaining about that then you must be goin out of business. It's a hobby AND a business. If you don't like it then go collect rocks. Thats free and there are no EvilFlippers.
US Mint Office of Public Affairs (202) 354-7222
If you are counting on government intervention or government regulation to change the current situation, you obviously learned nothing from the last decade in this country. Wishful thinking is alive and well.
"Wishful thinking is alive and well."
Wishful thinking is to think that nothing will be done to change the last decades problems.
Do you think the HSN actually had 200 ATB sets in hand or do you think they were selling the sets they plan to receive in the future???
I think the state attorney general in the state they operate will find out for me. LOL
I also think their all out admittance on nationwide tv of being able to acquire them from an AP is reason enough for the state attorney general to find out as well.
"Do you think the HSN actually had 200 ATB sets in hand or do you think they were selling the sets they plan to receive in the future???"
If that was the case which I know it isn't. There wouldn't be any by it nows left on ebay at 2500.00. Reason with that.
The US Mints legal Dept is investigating the APs . That I can assure you.
US Mint Office of Public Affairs (202) 354-7222
Everyone call this number that feels that the ATBs are being sold illegally. If you have proof of AP contract breach they will forward the proof to the US Mint legal dept.
I have a theory about where HSN and others are getting their 5 ounce ATB bullions.
EBAY!!!
Well, except for we have a video of the HSN show on YouTube where the host says they got their 210 sets from an AP. They pretty much incriminated themselves right there.
"I dont do anything different than any normal sane coindealer/businessowner does. I buy low and sell for a profit. How is that ruining the hobby? If you're a business owner complaining about that then you must be goin out of business. It's a hobby AND a business. If you don't like it then go collect rocks. Thats free and there are no EvilFlippers."
I can hear them now on the Rock Blogs..."Have you seen the price of rocks?!! Those flipping rockhounds are ruining our hobby!"
Congressman Issa from Va. says Obama administration is 'one of most corrupt'
This guy would love to dig into this crap
I will call him hope others will do the same
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/02/AR2011010201493.html
"How is that ruining the hobby? If you're a business owner complaining about that then you must be goin out of business?
I am a coin dealer as well. I am not going out of business. The reason I'm not going out of business is because my clients know I make a profit. They also know I do not gouge on my prices and I am very reasonable.
All the complaining that has hit the airways on these ATBs is just something that has been needed to let those dealers know that the customers (COLLECTORS, INVESTORS) are the ones who do keep you in business.
If certain dealers, and there are many who decide to take advantage of a new release by simple monopoly. Then they can ask any price they wish. That is NOT what the rules were concerning the ATBs. Many rules have been bent and twisted since the release that have caused the (COLLECTORS,INVESTORS) to retaliate with good reason.
I believe that the dealers found to be involved with all this monopoly will ultimately suffer. And many may end up going out of business.
I wanted these ATBs too. But, I was willing to sell them at a very small profit as is a usual care that I give my customers. So yes as a dealer I believe a lot needs to change in this hobby. These aren't rocks.
As a business and also someone that has made a product. I would not like to see anyone putting a outrageous price on the product I made. That would only make my product look like it was a ripoff.
That is exactly what the US Mint did. They did not want their product to look like a ripoff. But, The non respectful gougers took advantage and did just that.
It is time to take a stand and start making people responsible for their actions when it comes to breaching contracts. This is playing chicken with the hobby and the customers that these type of gougers are doing. That is how it is ruining this hobby.
HONEST COIN DEALER
Fed killed the stamp hobby with the "forever" stamp! they will kill the coin hobby with "dateless" coins. that will get rid of those pesky coin collectors!
I'm curious has anybody actually been able to place a successful atb order besides the original apmex orders?
To:
January 3, 2011 4:30 PM
"Fed killed the stamp hobby with the "forever" stamp! they will kill the coin hobby with "dateless" coins. that will get rid of those pesky coin collectors!"
This is the exact type of disrespect I am speaking of. That is the type of attitude that is killing this hobby. You get rid of the as you call it "pesky coin collectors" and you will lose a hobby that once was an honest fun hobby. So if you think they are pesky and don't like their views. Perhaps you should not be in this hobby. If your a flipper only in the hobby to take advantage of new collectors for monetary gain then you definitely need to be out of this hobby.
Honest Coin Dealer
to: HONEST COIN DEALER
I really appreciated reading your article since I am strictly a coin collector. You are a honest, stable, and strong businessman who really enjoys what he does. There are too few of you IMHO. I may say that I know because I work for customers from the space program to medicine. I give them extra time and the best of my abilities to make sure they are satisfied. AND, most especially, we know that we immensely enjoy our work and our customers.
The mint was absolutely right to step in and prevent a fiasco with the ATB pricing. Bullion is exactly what it is. APMEX was trying to preset the secondary market to get realizable profits up front, while invoking rarity. This is unacceptable and unfair to many collectors. I have read several complaints here that APMEX was actually doing us a favor since prices have since skyrocketed. Let me turn this around and say that prices have skyrocketed / snowballed precisely because APMEX was the first to pull the trigger. As a collector I decry that coin collecting has moved from the realm of HOBBY to INDUSTRY. Just look at the trash that PCGS pulls with "First Strike", "Secure Plus", Price Guide, or the flagrant hype in ebay, HSN, etc. It is time for collectors to take the hobby back and stop encouraging this nonsense.
Oh God, please give me a "pesky " coin collector with a sense of humor!!!!!!
MintProducts has 8 sets now at 3000.00 for a 5 coin set. Disgusting.
5 OZ TROUBLEMAKERS
The market sets the rate. Even if those primary dealers conspired to rig the market they still have to have DEMAND!If the dealers set the price to high and no one buys they either hold the coins or eat the loss if they need to cover. Ebay is a market that shows that even though the coins are not sold out demand says AT THIS POINT IN TIME that people are willing to pay those high premiums conspiracy or not. Was this handled like crap -sure. But in the end it's a simple supply and demand situation. Can anyone force the purchasers to pay the price they think is fair. NO! No matter how much we complain the only thing that decreases the price right now is a decrease in demand.
Really?? The Mint stepped in, decreased the buying price for my SINGLE, 5-coin set while simultaneously increasing the demand for the product.
Then again, I'm also that person who took a risk on purchasing each example of the 2008 W Buffalo options on their first day of sale. Didn't wait on gold pricing or sales trends. Wasn't surprised when the sales ended abruptly.
Regardless of the venue - coins, stock market, real estate, life and love - he who does not risk can not win.
BTW - if the purchasers pay the price they think is fair, are they being forced??
Wrong again EVIL FLIPPER. The price SUPPLY was rigged from the start and still is. The DEMAND is much higher which produces idiots willing to pay the prices. If these start to hit the market at a higher rate which I hope. Then you will see many people surprised how low the prices will go. Specially as soon as the US Mint releases them fairly to the people. Something the APs failed to do from the start. All the reasoning you seem to give always has the greed factor built right in it which makes you wrong before you type the first word. It's probably something to do with your arrogant name and attitude towards true collectors. You have made it very clear that your only concern is money and profit. Now go somewhere else because this blog is for true collectors interested in coin collecting.
The prices for these coins will probably stabilize at $3,000 or so not long after the APs finish releasing them - I think I will buy a set from APMEX for $900 and sell it back to them for $3,000 2 weeks later, just to be spiteful.
Every coin dealer in the world is going to be trying to buy these coins from us collectors - which is the way it should work; if there is going to be big profits changing hands it should be collectors profiting from dealers!
For Jan 3 at 4:30 PM - Since you obviously don't know, the Gov't divested itself of the Post Office in 1970 when it enacted the Postal Reform Act. The Post Master General lost his Cabinet Seat and immediately began reporting to a Board of Governors. Pricing, presentation, formats and programmatics have been decided by the Board ever since. Although some of their decisions could have been better, they have not been Federal or Legislated decisions.
While I am not fond of the "forever" marking, it is not going to be the death of the hobby. Commemorative stamp issues are unique from year to year, so they're easy to identify. Historically, philately already has seen many stamps that were issued without a numeric value, so most collectors aren't going to care if a "value" or "forever" is displayed. If worse comes to worse, like coin collecting, the hobby has several guides that document the stamps, dates of issue, characteristics, estimated values.
The Philatelists collect what they like and can afford, just like the true Numismatists do.
The Gold Center received its allotment three weeks ago.
“We primarily wanted to take care of our own customers and dealers. Once we got through that, we opened it up to the public on Monday morning at 10 a.m.,” [the owner] said.
http://www.sj-r.com/carousel/x1049173619/Silver-bullion-coins-attract-crowd-of-collectors-to-Springfield
How much you want to bet this sort of thing is going on at all of the APs? Face it, folks. We, the general public, won't be getting these coins.
What took place at the Gold Center is surely typical of what is, has, or will be taking place at each of the AP's that accepted an allotment from the Mint. This is further evidence that the Mint should have just sold these coins directly to the public itself once it became apparent what was happening at APMEX before the Mint stopped the release of the coins. The Mint had not one but two chances to stop these shenanigans and failed to protect the interests of the public both times.
Clearly, it is time to put an end to the entire AP program. The Mint needs to set up shop to make all of its releases directly to the public. This "insider" trading by the AP's is simply not fair to the public. Hey, Congress, wake up!
LL
Our Congressmen and our Senators will wake up, but only if WE provide something to wake them and elicit their response. Most of them don't have the time in the day to read this or other blogs. If they do, at this point all they see is the incessant whining. Hurrumphing just ain't getting it done, people.
Speaking from experience, nothing will make a business entity or a Federal Agency stand up and take notice like a "Congressional," or Congressional Investigation will.
However, an effort of that magnitude will be in response to written, concisely detailed requests that make reference to Public Laws, Executive Orders, dates of events, responses, and blatent acts of fiduciary irresponsibility.
So, if its that important to you, stop whining and take action. I did!! Should one or more people from 25 of the 50 states contact their representatives, with a focus on those tied to Treasury, Finance, Ways and Means, Budget, etc., something might get done.
Reaction to perceived injustices is the guaranteed right of every citizen. Inaction is your choice. Is this worth a couple hours of your time and 44 cents? If not, then move on...
I just want my pucks. Can I has them?
Yes, you can have them... For 3000.00 bucks and not from APs unfortunately.
Further 5oz bullion releases will be done by the Mint only from now on. Too bad the numbers may be much higher too.
This is an unexpected and controversial release which also happens to also be the key
That quote from The Gold Center sounds like they did not offer all of their sets to the public - they need to be immediately removed from their AP status.
They were specifically told not to do what their owner bragged about doing!
Let them be the first, but probably not the last, to get kciked out over this. They are probably the ones who sold sets to HSN!
I just read the article where The Gold Center owner made his very incriminating statement - and the article says he only offered 600 sets to the public!?!?!?!
HE SAID HE RECEIVED 3,700 SETS FROM THE MINT - BRAGS ABOUT NOT OFFERING THEM TO THE PUBLIC FIRST - THEN OFFERS SOME TO THE PUBLIC, BUT ONLY 600 OUT OF 3,700 SETS! THAT MEANS LESS THAN 15% OF HIS COINS WERE EVEN OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC... I GUESS HE SOLD THE REST TO HSN 2 WEEKS AGO!
REMOVE THIS DIRTBAG IMMEDIATELY FROM THE AP PROGRAM!
To: January 4, 2011 2:01 PM
Very well put. I spent my 44 cent stamps four times on this situation.. My congressman, The US Mint public affairs office, My local Senator, And The Office of Attorney General where HSN is located. Everyone else who is upset over this should do the same. If enough people do this. There will be something done to stop future results like this on other AP offerings mandated by the US Mint.
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