United States Mint 2010 Bullion Sales
With another year behind us, it's a good time to revisit the annual sales figures for the United States Mint's bullion coin programs.
The American Silver Eagles set a new annual record, while Gold Eagles sold about 14% less than the prior year. The American Gold Buffalo, which was only available for five months, was up slightly from the prior year.
The following tables will present the annual sales figures for US Mint bullion coins by product measured in troy ounces. Note, these are not mintage figures, but reflect the total ounces sold during the calendar year without regards to date.
| American Gold Eagle Bullion Sales (ounces) | |
| Year | Ounces |
| 1986 | 1,787,750 |
| 1987 | 1,253,000 |
| 1988 | 560,000 |
| 1989 | 503,500 |
| 1990 | 457,450 |
| 1991 | 253,000 |
| 1992 | 385,800 |
| 1993 | 514,000 |
| 1994 | 310,000 |
| 1995 | 297,750 |
| 1996 | 275,000 |
| 1997 | 771,250 |
| 1998 | 1,839,500 |
| 1999 | 2,055,500 |
| 2000 | 164,500 |
| 2001 | 325,000 |
| 2002 | 315,000 |
| 2003 | 484,500 |
| 2004 | 536,000 |
| 2005 | 449,000 |
| 2006 | 261,000 |
| 2007 | 198,500 |
| 2008 | 860,500 |
| 2009 | 1,425,000 |
| 2010 | 1,220,500 |
| Total | 17,503,000 |
During 2010, the US Mint recorded sales of 1,220,500 ounces of gold through the American Gold Eagle bullion coins. Sales consisted of 1,143,000 one ounce coins, 46,000 one-half ounce coins, 62,000 one-quarter ounce coins, and 390,000 one-tenth ounce coins.
The highest monthly sales total occurred in July when 152,000 ounces were sold. The lowest monthly sales occurred in December when 60,000 ounces were sold.
Sales of the 22 karat Gold Eagle bullion coins reached their annual peak back in 1999, when uncertainty about Y2K spurred demand for gold. During the course of the last three years, gold bullion coins were sometimes subject to rationing, meaning that recent annual sales may not reflect total demand.
| American Silver Eagle Bullion Sales (ounces) | |
| Year | Ounces |
| 1986 | 5,096,000 |
| 1987 | 9,420,000 |
| 1988 | 5,869,000 |
| 1989 | 6,166,000 |
| 1990 | 7,247,000 |
| 1991 | 6,952,000 |
| 1992 | 5,544,000 |
| 1993 | 5,890,000 |
| 1994 | 5,540,500 |
| 1995 | 4,590,000 |
| 1996 | 3,466,000 |
| 1997 | 3,636,000 |
| 1998 | 4,320,000 |
| 1999 | 9,008,500 |
| 2000 | 9,133,000 |
| 2001 | 8,827,500 |
| 2002 | 10,475,500 |
| 2003 | 9,153,500 |
| 2004 | 9,617,000 |
| 2005 | 8,405,000 |
| 2006 | 10,021,000 |
| 2007 | 9,887,000 |
| 2008 | 19,583,500 |
| 2009 | 28,766,500 |
| 2010 | 34,662,500 |
| Total | 241,277,000 |
American Silver Eagle bullion sales achieved a new record for annual sales with 34,662,500 of the one ounce coins sold. This amount represents more than three times the average annual sales level, and exceeds the total sales for the first five years of the program.
Silver Eagles also achieved record monthly sales of 4,260,000 ounces during November 2010. The prior record took place back in December 1986.
| American Gold Buffalo Bullion Sales (ounces) | |
| Year | Ounces |
| 2006 | 323,000 |
| 2007 | 167,500 |
| 2008 | 172,000 |
| 2009 | 200,000 |
| 2010 | 209,000 |
| Total | 1,071,500 |
The 24 karat American Gold Buffalo bullion coins were only available for sale this year from April 29, 2010 to the end of September 2010. This was a longer period of availability than 2009, when the coins were offered for less than two months.
Total annual sales came in at 209,000, representing the second highest year of sales, after the 323,000 ounces sold in 2006 when the series debuted.
Coin Update News: 2011 US Mint Commemorative Coins
Labels: Coin Mintages
posted by Mint News Blog @ 7:47 AM
131 Comments:
Thanks for the new post Michael !
Maybe the ATB whiners can stay off of this one
Are you kidding? Everyone ALWAYS comments on the most recent post, since that is the one that has the greatest chance of being read!
And thanks "M" for scrubbing your posts of unfriendly people.
I don't mind the "ATB whiners" as much as when the comments turn to political chatter!
Right, this is a coin blog. There are plenty of other sites for that topic!
More thanks here, too. And thanks for making that 9:40 AM poster with the sub-cranial rectal occlusion disappear from this virtual world!! We know the information is available in other locations; we CHOOSE to come here.
If you do happen to list the numbers for the ASE UNC coins from '06-'08, could you also try to find some revised numbers for the '08 / Rev of '07 variety. At the time, folks had been estimating 42K +/-, but I have yet to see any updated information since.
Ok, here is some ATB news for you guy, ha ha. The mint is not going to change the size. It will still be 3 inch after all. So, 2010 will not be that super rare. I will try to buy it when the mint sell them. I will not over pay for a bullion. However, if the price is right, I'll buy a set. Those that pay over 3 or 4 thousands dollar are going to be sick, ha ha.
Here are the mintages for the 2006-2008-W ASE:
http://silvereagleguide.com/mintages/
For the 2008-W Reverse of 2007, I haven't seen any new information other than the estimate originally provided by the Mint. I think someone might have tried a FOIA request, but I don't remember or didn't see the result.
This guy on ebay is selling DOZENS of ATB 5 OZ sets, and isn't it funny that his address is JUST DOWN THE STREET FROM THE GOLD CENTER IN ILLIONOIS?
ebay user: coinsantiques.23
Here is one of his auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/America-Beautiful-Silver-Round-Set-5oz-Each-/160528767275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256042992b
This is why The Gold Center must immediately be kicked out of the AP program for breach of contract!
They are letting this one guy illegally profit over $50,000!
THANKS FOR INFO
The Gold Center Guy is claiming that someone “hired” people to stand in line to purchase the sets.
Someone had hired 50 to 60 people from a local employment agency to stand in line and purchase sets, Hausman said. But as soon as he found out about it, he told the group he wouldn’t sell sets to them.
“Then another person put someone at a restaurant three blocks from here paying people $250 apiece to come over here and buy sets,” Hausman said.
“Customers, busboys, waitresses were coming over here, and what can we do about it? The U.S. Mint dictated the policy. I figure they ended up with 50 to 75 sets.”
http://numismaticnews.net/article/Everybody_wants_one/
You can ban it all. An addict(speculator) will find a way.
The Gold Center owner still bragged about only offering 600 sets to the public... so they must be removed for not offering the other 3,100 he said they had received from the mint!
Even if the 600 he sold were legit and some crook just beat the system, he still only offered 600 sets - which is breach of contract!
The Gold Center must be kicked out of the AP program immediately for this - they agreed to be kicked out if they broke the rules, and they gladly did.
(Off-Topic-ATB) The AP’s should now realize that over the counter sales are not practical. FideliTrade appears to have initiated a stealth fill out a form and mail in a check approach. Seems legit but it is not clear if it is open to just anyone. Check out Goldismoney2 for the details.
Filling out a form and mailing seems a lot more legit than over the counter sales.
Oh wow. Those 2010 bullion (and proof) coins are going to be worth a lot of money.... not.
Peeps who buy these coins thinking that they is gonna make lotsa moolah in the future better think twice.
Re "ebay user: coinsantiques.23
" he also has several other ebay id's coinsantiques.xx
You can tell his auctions from the same pic being used. Some auctions start at .99 and then there are about a dozen at a "buy it now" price of $2700...each of these auctions show 5 available.
All together, I counted 184 ATB 5 oz sets this guy is selling....and it keeps increasing every few hours.
High volumes always occur at the peak of the market. So for prices to go higher we should logically have to expect sales volumes to go even higher. But with silver selling over 34 million ASEs in a year, how many more can they produce in a year? Could this be the top?
On top of the mints new prices, I wish all of you could see the quality of the Lincoln dollar and spouse medal, and the Lincoln first day cover, I just received yesterday. If they are going to charge so much more, they need to put nice coins in the sets they sell. All 4 metal items look like they have been in circulation for 2 or 3 years. Absolutely no excuse for such high priced, scratched up coins. Even the Mary Todd Lincoln medal is horrible. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.
That is why i never buy anything direct from the mint anymore. It is always a total crap shoot that results in crap. The politicians in Washington always get the best coins. If you want nice coins, buy from MCM and the like or go to local shows to put an eye ball to the coin before you pay. You will be alot happier.
Oh wow. Those 2010 bullion (and proof) coins are going to be worth a lot of money.... not.
Peeps who buy these coins thinking that they is gonna make lotsa moolah in the future better think twice.
I think you've got it exactly backward.I think low mintages won't be worth much because less people will collect coins and bullion will be worth more because inflation will make the dollar worth less.
The guy on the other thread who said coins will not be used much in the future is right. The government would prefer we only use electronic money so they can track it and tax it.
Look at stamp collecting. With email and meter stamps and computer postage and post office not carrying commemoratives, kids don't collect stamps any more. With debit cards people won't use cash any more.
Check out the prices of proof sets and mint sets in Numismatic News. They show the issue price, and many of them are worth less than they cost from the Mint in the 1970s, 80s and 90s! Proof sets are good for a birth gift or for fun, but not for profit.
Many of the sets are only worth more than issue price because of the silver content.
With our government printing money day and night, inflation will eventually kick in like it has in every similar situation in history. Then gold and silver proof and bullion will go sky high.
At the 400 or so tables at the F.U.N. coin show in Tamps this week I couldn't find a single gold proof set other than 2010. A couple people said one dealer bought them all.
Anyone know what's up with that? I saw one dealer advertise last year paying $2000 an ounce for any gold eagle with box and papers. Now the price is down to about $1625 an ounce. Also I notice that on Ebay the same guy buys them all unless the price goes too high.
I've never before been a flipper before, but I brought my APMEX ATB set to the F.U.N. show when it opened Thursday and one of the major bullion dealers (mentioned in this blog occasionally as a good place to buy but not APMEX) offered me $2500 for it. A dealer friend said he could get them from another dealer for $2200 and I should grab the money so I did. Then with it I bought from the friend dealer 80 oz. of silver in 10 oz. bars. I may be wrong but I bet the 80 oz. will do better in the long run than the 25 oz. of ATB. I was planning to collect the whole set, but I thought they were ugly.
I hope there is a decent sized silver correction right now. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about rolling around in gold and silver but a nice healthy correction right before the Mint issues the numismatic ATB set would be a gift of epic proportions. For those of you at the F.U.N. show in Florida I am truly envious. And for all of us using paypal- make sure to have plenty of KY... I heard they're gonna raise they're pound of flesh by about a quarter pound. Evil out.
As a dealer I have seen a sharp decline in customer confidence due to the recent price hikes and ATB scandals. The recent events are starting to effect this hobby in a much more serious way then ever before. It is my fear that this hobby is becoming one of profit concern only. I can only hope that the realization of true values can be met to keep this hobby from dying.
In many ways it is reminiscent of the Hunt brothers scenario. And guess what folks? Silver hasn't hit 50.00 yet. But seeing it hit 100.00 or more with the ATBs was enough to make even the Hunt Brother cringe.
Someone referred to elastic when comparing price increases to demand as a test. I look at it more like plastic surgery by the TPGs and AP dealers designed to maximize profit without reasoning.
As a smaller dealer I see reality hitting this market in a negative way. Perhaps that elastic and plastic has hit it's stretching point and snapped.
At least 80% of my customers have cancelled their subscriptions with the US Mint and my sales have also seen a decrease. I'm not sure what the turn out has been and sales figures have been from the FUN show. But I'd be willing to bet they have declined from previous years.
2010 became a very uneventful cast of bad quality and lack luster designs which has ushered in complete disappointment by years end into 2011. This quarter is showing predictions of hyperinflation on all products across the board. These are not good signs for the longevity of this hobby.
Honest Coin Dealer
In the words of the late, great Charlton Heston...
"It's a madhouse! A MAAADHOOOUSE!!"
I'd have to agree. There is tremendous HYPE being generated in the coin "industry" by the TPGs (PCGS/NGC etc) in collaboration with the likes of eBay / Paypal, dishonest dealers, and multiple forums. Just look at PCGS basing prices in their price guide on the populations of just PCGS-graded coins, which in reality have mintages in the multi millions. Collectors who buy into this for the long term are going to be bitterly disappointed. This is where APMEX could have taken the high road and offered the ATBs at reasonable cost. They chose to simply prejudge the premium and add it to the bullion cost. As long as profit is the main motivator there is bound to be deceit of this kind. Ultimately it hurts the common everyday coin collector the most. We really should start acting to take back the hobby from PCGS, eBay, Paypal, and the rest of these fleeting organizations.
A little off topic maybe, but a link was provided in the posting about commemoratives. Could someone explain why certain $5 gold coins are worth so much more than others in recent history? The 2001 capitol visitors center, 97 Robinson and 97 Roosevelt in particular. Was it purely low mintages that drove this? Were they offered for a shorter period of time than usual or was their just low interest at the time?
Also am reminded of that dealer dude Contursi in San Diego who claimed that he had the first minted 1794 Flowing Hair Silver Dollar and that he "knew" that George Washington had handled it !!!
I had the Jackie Robinson uncirc. $5 Gold. The mintage was slightly above 5K which made it a modern rarity.
" This is where APMEX could have taken the high road and offered the ATBs at reasonable cost. "
Apmex got less than 900 per set. Their original asking price was 1395. They have never offered them for more than 1395. It's everyone else that is asking (and getting) well north of 2000 and in some cases 3000. Can you name a single source that has offered a five coin set for less than apmex to the general public?
Or even the same price as apmex for that matter.
Thanks 7:22, Was the Jackie Robinson available for the entire year? Was gold just so out of favor at that time that no one wanted these coins?
Well obviously it was racism!
I don't remember the exact situation with the Jackie Robinson low mintages. Those were the days when the orders were placed by snail mail on forms and notices sent by the Mint. I purchased the 4-coin set and the 311 set which had a baseball card, pin, and the proof gold. My interest in the coins was because of the history of Jackie Robinson, and I was also playing the game at the time. I suspect that racial issues played a part in keeping the sales for this commemorative issue low.
Races and gender play a BIG role in the popularity and demand of US Mint coins.
Look at the following low mintage coins -- do you see a pattern?
1998. 37,210 1998-S Black Revolutionary War Patriots BU S$1
1997 24,072 1997-W Jackie Robinson PR G$5
1997 5,174 1997-W Jackie Robinson BU G$5
First spouse gold coins.
Race and gender a determining factor? Perhaps, but in my opinion, to a very few buyers. I have bought a majority of mint produced items and coins for over 45 years, but I also passed up on the Robinson offering at the time. Nothing to do with race or gender, at least in my case. I simply did not think a baseball player coin would generate much in the way of later price appreciation or level price retention. Bad decison in retrospect. On the other hand, I bought a very large quanity of the Buffalo pieces in 2001, both singularly and in the multi-sets offerings. Why? Because I have always thought the Bison / Buffalo on ANY U.S. coin stirs interest as a quasi-symbol directly linked to America. For the same reasoning, I do not and will not ever buy Buffalo / Bison meat at the supermarket. Just can't do it, but respect others who can and do enjoy that. So while in my case I missed a price rise in the Jackie Robinson coins, I did score rather well with the Buffalo's. I make it a habit not to look back in anger when history shows I missed something worthwhile or I made a bad choice. You can't win every time, but on balance all you need to do is be in control of your needs.~Grandpa
I should state that I had the Jackie Robinson and my other coins stashed away for quite a while. I had forgotten about them till recently, 2005. Then I happened to pick up an article on the "values of modern commemoratives" and to my great surprise found out that my Jackie Robinson Uncirculated $5 gold coin had appreciated significantly. I was shocked! This coin was the jewel of my small coin collection.
MY BIGGEST MISTAKE WAS SENDING THE COIN IN TO PCGS FOR GRADING. IT CAME BACK COATED IN OIL. I WAS VERY DEEPLY DISTRESSED.
To Grandpa, You continue to provide very good advice and much needed common sense to the blog discussions. We salute you Sir !
The mistake that the Mint made in 95 and 96 was to offer a 32-coin Olympic set. The mintages drop off dramatically from the beginning to the end of that set, by the time the next year rolled around, no one was interested in anything that the mint had to offer.
Sorry to bring up ATB silver coins again, but I'm wondering something. Does anyone have any idea HOW the Mint plans to offer the numismatic versions? I know there's 27,000 sets total, but do you think some will be offered AS 5-coin sets in a presentation case, while some will be offered as singles? If so, what kind of spread do you think they might do? It kind of seems to me that 12,000 5-coin sets in presentation case and 15,000 singles of each design might make sense.
I know there will be a household limit of 1 of each design, whether purchased as a 5-coin set or as 5 singles. I think a 5-coin set encapsulated in a presentation case will look pretty nice!
Oh wow. Those 2010 bullion (and proof) coins are going to be worth a lot of money.... not.
Peeps who buy these coins thinking that they is gonna make lotsa moolah in the future better think twice.
LOL
Low mintages, high mintages, it does not matter.
The USA is bankrupt. It is only important that you possess gold and silver. But only gold will experience a life-changing revaluation. Listen to what the world bank head it telling you. He is not saying a gold backing is coming. A "reference point" is coming. That "reference" is gold. Own physical and you shall be rewarded.
Dave Harper writes that prices for the ATB 5 ounce coins won't stay high. There are no collectors for these sets. Just speculators. He writes the following:
----------------------
Prices can't last for silver 5-ounce set
Why them and not me?
That’s a pretty standard question being directed my way by collectors who were not able to enjoy a windfall profit on the 5-ounce silver 2010 America the Beautiful set.
Mint rules restricting the price that nine Authorized Purchasers could charge for the 33,000 sets and limiting sales to one set per household, theoretically means that 33,000 individuals out of the millions of collectors and investors out there had a gift of about $1,800 if current prices hold.
What do I mean?
Well the AP’s can/could charge only around $975 for the set.
Buyers could turn those sets around online for approximately $2,800.
Graded sets have been reported to bring over $6,000.
As angry as those numbers make those who were shut out feel, they also provide evidence that might make them calm down simply because these prices can’t last.
If all 33,000 sets were sold for $975, that means it takes $32,175,000 to buy them all.
If they all sold for $2,800 online that would bring the total dollars required to buy them to $92,400,000.
If they all could sell for what some of the graded sets are bringing, let’s use the $6,000, figure, that means it would take $198,000,000 to buy them all.
Obviously, not all sets can sell for those figures. The simple fact of 33,000 sellers eventually trying to get those prices and a hoped-for profit in the secondary market will bring the prices down.
In comparison, the recent sales by the Mint of 856,356 proof 2010 silver American Eagles generated sales of just under $40 million.
That pretty well defines the long-term limit of this market and explains why as soon as the lucky 33,000 original buyers get their sets they will try to sell them as fast as they can.
There are no collectors out there for these sets, just speculators.
There are no collectors out there for these sets, just speculators.
I doubt speculators are the ones buying these on ebay for the incredible prices. Not much left for additional appreciation; greater chance prices will drop. Not sure what the people are thinking that are paying the high prices, but I doubt they are speculators.
After the initial hype dies down the prices will settle. It may take a few years for the quiescent value to establish. This has happened many many times - for example the 2000 Sacagawea proof dollar spurred on by the PCGS price guide initially cost more than a high grade pre-33 St Gaudens gold $20. They can be had for less than $ 100 now. Many (including APMEX) were / are trying to capitalize on the hype, which will die down. If one factors in the reality of the economic situation I wonder how many true blood collectors would consider it wise to slap down money in the multiple thousands for this bullion.
If one is a dealer with a lot of a certain coin, it would be worthwhile to bid them all up artificially high on Ebay to sells your for the same prices.
I think there is some steak to go with the ATB sizzle though...
First huge coins ever made by Mint
Only year with 3 inch size
Only year with such low mintage
First Year of Issue
Only 33,000 sets made
I think that justifies a hefty price.
The 1999 quarter silver set sells for about $150 to $200 per set. At 800,000 sets that is $120 million to $160 million dollars.
These 5 oz sets at 33,000 would sell for between $3636 to $4848 a set to match the total amount valued in the 1999 silver quarters.
Concerning the Gold Center:
I called them in Mid December and they said, They weren't going to participate in the ATB program.
Two weeks later I read in the Numismatic News they were among the People selling the coins. I then called them back on Jan 3,2011around 10 AM and they then told me you had to be at the business in person and was also informed it would be a waste of my time to go there, for the lines were so long..
If they didn't sell out on the 3rd they are Liars and should be kicked out of the Program..
I would tell dave harper that it seems ridiculous that people would buy the spouse medals and all the other crap there. But they do. Silver is more than crappy coin bags full of quarters and nickels ANY day. And first day covers. And don't worry about the cash being there. Ol Benny and the inkjets are makin more every day.
The 2010 5 oz ATB silver will always be at a premium regardless of the price of silver, because they are excellent designs that show the pride of America's lands.
However, if the Mint makes less than 33,000, for example 15,000 of one design in 2011 or later year, the 2010 prices will go down a bit.
2010 won't be the only year that these are minted in the 3 inch size. They will continue the series in the same size, but I do believe that the edge writing could be relocated to the obverse or reverse for ease of minting. The edge writing was one of the major hangups in minting these suckers. Anyway, it sure would be nice to have the only year that edgewriting was used. I'm really looking forward to the US Mint version. I wonder why they haven't already listed those?
Ah yes ! The rational of rationing the over priced ATBs. These are 5 ounce BULLION and I repeat BULLION coins.
33,000 of these coins make them among some of the highest mintage 5 oz coins in the world. To assume that they will hold value in a smaller collector base is dreaming.
The shear arrogance in the assumption that high premiums should be automatic is a huge mistake to buy into. All who pay at these prices WILL be disappointed later.
The amazingly ignorant part is the people making these high priced assumptions about future values are in no way paying or willing to pay the prices they claim.
For anyone to assume that these coins will do anything other then bullion price in a economy of turmoil is fooling their selves.
In all my years of collecting. The recent events by those in charge of distribution have made me question the future of this hobby.
For anyone that wants to try to confuse these statements with jealousy of not getting an ATB. I reassure you that unless they can be obtained at spot. I would never want one anyway.
Because when you can no longer afford to fill your gas tanks and buy a loaf of bread those 5 oz bullion coins won't get you anything more then spot.
I would say that spot price just got tested at 100.00 per ounce with these ATBs and failed miserably LOL.
In Fact I believe the general consensus has been that of greed and ignorance combining to make for a true realization that most common sense people will not be buying at these levels.
The US has the largest collecting base in the world so you can't compare us to Mexico, sorry.
Also these are 5 ounce type coins, not the same design every year.
People are already paying well over spot for these, when the 2011 coins come out with a much higher mintage then these will keep their value. And these will be marketed unlike what the others do. Don't worry, lol.
Also these are 5 ounce type coins, not the same design every year.
More like 5 ounce Hype coins LOL. And yes they will be marketed by all the people who would never pay what they are assuming they are worth or asking.That is why you will see those who are paying the outrageous prices now become very disappointed when reality hits.
Has anyone heard who the new US Mint director might be? Or has this whole ATB scandal and recent US Mint price increase just made everyone not give a crap any more?
Even if they don't hold their value, you'd be crazy to not try and flip a set if you can get them at the lower regulated price. I got in on the Apmex set and flipped it on feebay and still cleared $1000 profit. Now I have used that money to buy a Fidelitrade set. Now that i'll have a free set thanks to speculation, I can sit back and relax until the US Mint Version is released later on. Now that's gonna be a fun and frustrating day....im sure.
Good for you 947. People on here will think your some kind of criminal, but you were enterprising and recognized an opportunity to improve your lot in life. I bought a set too on apmex. I haven't flipped it yet for fear it may be too difficult to land another.
It's amazing that collecting is all about the profit you can make now instead of the actual coin designs,history, and love for the hobby.
There's plenty of time for all of that later. Right now, make the money on these while you can! The price level WON'T last!
The US Mint has created this speculating market. Its completely their fault. If anyone has any problem with the way the coin collecting has gone, BLAME THE MINT!!! It is what it is. Like it or leave it.
"The US Mint has created this speculating market. Its completely their fault."
Their is plenty of blame to go around. It is not just all on the US Mint. I agree the US Mint is in part to blame. But, The APs and the flippers are also in the same boat that has begun to sink this hobby.
Mint allows there to be APs in the first place. As for the flippers, what could they flip if the Mint would just ramp up the mintages to meet demand. Yup...Mint's fault.
Yeah, the "flippers" might be in the boat that is sinking the hobby, but they are the ones with the life jackets!
I was searching for the mintages for the proof gold eagles and I came upon a US Mint press release from 1997 that they were planning to lower the mintages of the gold proofs to make them more valuable to collectors!
I would have thought they would want to meet collector demand, but they intentionally wanted to make them rarer.
But those were the days when gold didn't move in price and maybe they were afraid people would just stop buying them. Sales had been dropping from when they came out in 1986 at 446,000 down to 36,000.
Coin collecting is the oldest hobby in the world. It won't die. I'm gonna start callin out the doomers soon. (and I woulda gotten away with it too if it weren't fer those pesky doomers)
WHATEVER YOU SAY EVIL FLIPPER. YOU SEEM TO KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THIS HOBBY IF YOU THINK THIS HOBBY ISN'T DYING. CALL ME OUT LOL GO FOR IT. YOUR PART OF THE REASON FOR THIS HOBBIES IMPENDING DEATH. ALL YOUR HYPE IS GREED DRIVEN WITH NO CARE FORE ANYONE BENEFITING BUT YOURSELF. THAT IS CALLED SELFISH GREED IMO
Gimme a time frame for death. Will everyone turn in their pm's?Will the us mint stop making coins?Will the auction houses close?Will foreigners stop collecting too? Are you gonna throw away your collection? Seriously. The way people see coins may change. The way people collect may change. What people collect and their tastes may change. But it wont totally ever go away(direct meteor hit,megadeath, or alien invasion not withstanding). The coin collecting hobby is always changing. Its like the river- always changin yet always the same. Its the ability to adapt that separates us. Easy on the caps locks. Ill call you out in a couple months... And years... And decades and if people are still collecting coins you owe me your most valuable peice. Deal?
Hee hee. I LOVE "EvilFlipper"! :)
"The way people see coins may change. The way people collect may change. What people collect and their tastes may change. But it wont totally ever go away(direct meteor hit,megadeath, or alien invasion not withstanding). The coin collecting hobby is always changing. Its like the river- always changin yet always the same. Its the ability to adapt that separates us."
So your perception of changing is to flip all you can out of self motivation to gain profit? I bet you have no kids that you teach history to with coins. I bet you have no care for coins other than to make a profit off of them. I bet you only have one perspective in mind. GREEDY PROFIT. And that is what has changed this hobby into the evil face people like yourself has given it.
Come on, man! Are you honestly trying to tell me that you would turn down the opportunity to turn $1,000+ in profit in 24 hours by selling an ATB 5 oz silver set?
Don't be so judgemental of others. I'll bet most flippers are coin collectors themselves. There's no harm in "striking while the iron's hot" and making a profit on a hot item. Those buying at the inflated prices make their own decisions on what to buy or not to buy and for what price.
"Come on, man! Are you honestly trying to tell me that you would turn down the opportunity to turn $1,000+ in profit in 24 hours by selling an ATB 5 oz silver set?"
Honesty being the key word here. YES I HONESTLY can not see making that much off of these ATBs. And Yes I HONESTLY see something wrong with people sleeping at night while doing just that. But that is the difference between honesty and being greedy. I come from a family that was raised to earn what we make honestly. You obviously weren't.
As long as no laws are being broken, I would think that the money IS being made "honestly."
Stop trying to sound so wholesome. If you had bought a set of 5 oz coins you would sell them for these crazy prices too. You and I both know it.
"There's no harm in "striking while the iron's hot" and making a profit on a hot item. Those buying at the inflated prices make their own decisions on what to buy or not to buy and for what price."
So the people that are unknowing and new to coin collecting and believe all the hype you can muster to get them to pay the highest premiums are later finding out that they were ripped off. And you have no problem seeing that you were part of ripping them off. WHATEVER!!!!
Actually, I sold my set to a coin dealer. I trust that he knows what he's doing.
Besides, I did not "hype" my set to sell it. I just offered it for sale at the time that the sets are commanding a hefty premium. Am I so wrong for doing so?
And your wrong again flipper. I did buy the set and I have taught my daughter much about the national parks with it. I am glad I was able to buy the set at a lower price thanks to the US Mint. And NO I will not sell my set because I buy coins to collect,teach, and enjoy history with. NOT to flip. That has nothing to do with being wholesome as you put it. It has everything to do with being fair and honest. Something you could use some serious lessons in.
If your so adamant at not making any money from collecting tell your kids they're only allowed to sell their inheritance at 1950's prices. And tell them they're never allowed to make money from the lottery, or gambling, or publishers clearing house or raffles or bingo or ANYTHING that doesn't involve work. No passive income or anything. No stock gains because that doesn't involve direct work. No savings bonds or dividends or anything. Listen to yourself. You're not even thinking about what you're saying. If you ever buy anything and it shoots up in value whether it be speculative or not promise to NEVER sell it at a profit. And teach that to your kids as well. I'm sure they'll thank you for all the passed up opportunities. I have three kids. They know money. And I promise they will whip by your kids when the opportunity presents itself. They will adapt.
As far as collecting I love old large cents and bust halves. I know my coins. And my history.
This country was not founded on the easy way out. And that will be what takes this country down. People like you taking the easy way out. Don't don't feel alone flipper. There are to many like you out there for this country to rebound from good hard work. And to think your teaching three others to be that way. God help us all.
Bam recent ebay sale 2009 uhr still in box--$2492 net profit $1300. '08 $100 platinum unc on ebay sold $2450 Bought one for $1079net profit over #1300. Why all the bashing of these profiteers. If you can sell em-make the money. As for me I prefer to hold on to these WHY? because I enjoy the collecting hobby, keep these around for harder times, so who cares how you make your dough-you could have just as easily made them on the buffalo gold or 08 unc american eagle sets. And made even more on the speculatory effect of these rarer coins than these 5 oz. silver bullion!!!!!!
Bam recent ebay sale 2009 uhr still in box--$2492 net profit $1300. '08 $100 platinum unc on ebay sold $2450 Bought one for $1079net profit over #1300. Why all the bashing of these profiteers. If you can sell em-make the money. As for me I prefer to hold on to these WHY? because I enjoy the collecting hobby, keep these around for harder times, so who cares how you make your dough-you could have just as easily made them on the buffalo gold or 08 unc american eagle sets. And made even more on the speculatory effect of these rarer coins than these 5 oz. silver bullion!!!!!!
This country was not founded on the easy way out. And that will be what takes this country down. People like you taking the easy way out. Don't don't feel alone flipper. There are to many like you out there for this country to rebound from good hard work. And to think your teaching three others to be that way. God help us all.
i enjoy reading the posts, i donot know who is right or wrong on this whole 5 OZ ATB circus,but one thing is for sure the "Evilflipper" can argue his side and argue it pretty good
There is no arguing the fact that the current prices being sold on these ATBs are a ripoff either. The market was unfortunately cornered by the APs and the US Mint allowed that to happen. A handful of flippers made out. But for the most part. This ATB situation stinks of controversy. That will only hurt it's value in the future. Not to mention the fact that they are just some really ugly coins that look like an over sized quarter. So the evil flipper and flippers like him will always take advantage of those who don't know any better. If that makes him able to argue his side. So be it. In my eyes he is just another flipper taking advantage of someone out there that is getting ripped off because they are uneducated. And that in my opinion is just morally wrong.
Hey, 730, who died and made you the decision maker on if these coins are overpriced? And who are you to make judgements about other people?
Maybe these coins are overpriced, maybe they aren't. The market prices over time will tell us. If people make a decision to purchase these coins that is their own free choice. For you to call them uneducated is pompous, arrogant and judgemental. May God have mercy on your soul.
@7:30
i understand your point about the pricing and all the ripoffs, but on the other side "EvilFlipper" has all the right to make money and flip, no one is forced to buy it, i donot have a 5 OZ ATB set, because i didnot want to pay AMPEX $1395, now i admitt i kind of regret it and my wife is tired of hearing me talking about those stupid coins(according to her), but thats my fault, i cannot even buy one at that price,so no Guts no Glory, hey by the way "EVILFLIPPER" do u have a set for me, now i am willing to pay $1395, HAHAHAH
It's amazing how ugly people get when the truth hurts LOL. I agree 100% with you 7:30. And no one died and made anyone the decision maker. it's just the truth. These coins became a ripoff the minute APMEX announced the sale.
The beauty of the APMEX sale was that those of us who placed orders at $1,395 that first night later only had to pay $859.95!
That was great, wasn't it?
Yes, it was definitely a SWEET deal! :)
You can thank the US Mint for that.
Only 153 sets have sold on ebay. That only shows that there is very little demand for these sets at these prices. It also shows that there are a lot more educated people willing to wait then get ripped off by the few flippers who only bought them to flip. I'm also glad the US Mint stepped in so I could get my set to keep. I don't care what the values are on the set myself. But I do agree that the morals of these flippers with their bull crap hype stories are getting old and more people are becoming aware of their games.
Totally awesome deal.
BTW america was founded on PROFITEERING and hard work (Just ask the natives and slaves).
Washington was the wealthiest man in the USA at the time.Romanticism of the foundation of the US is just that. Lots of things in history will surprise you if you just pick up a book. For better or worse it is what it is.
I get the sense that those who are against flipping have more money than they know what to do with. I for one don't have a lot of money. If I want to buy an expensive coin for my collection, I have to flip an opportunity to make the money that I buy my own collection with. Otherwise I'm left with sorting through my pocket change to add to my collection. I see a lot of older rich collectors here arguing against lower income opportunist. I personally believe you can be a flipper and a collector at the same time. If I was rich, I wouldn't flip either...but I'm not rich. SO, I'll just keep flipping to the rich. Peace out!
And there's no telling how they got their money in the first place.
The same way we all get our money.
We print it.
It is those who are not rich and wanted one of these sets for a fair price who are the ones who are getting screwed.The US Mint tried to stop the gouging and the APs have broken all the rules to keep the market cornered. The flippers followed suit and became morally wrong. George Washington was a fair and honest trader and that is why he was successful. Anything you flippers say will not discount the fact that you ripped people off with the prices you asked or sold for during these artificially over inflated prices. The APs are just as wrong if not worse and the US Mint is even worse for not doing anything to stop this insanity. You are all in the same boat of people who are ruining this hobby. And that is the truth.
If you're not rich, you have no business buying $900 worth of silver in my opinion. The hobby is what you make it. I'm not sure what all the whining is about anyway. All these pucks are just bullion coins anyway. True collectors will be going after the US Mint "P" mint mark Coins. You should be able to get one of those for a reasonable price...
"If you're not rich, you have no business buying $900 worth of silver in my opinion."
WHATTTTTT??????
That is not that much money even for someone that is not rich. I guess now the philosophy is that these ATB bullion pieces are only for the rich. Talk about being a whiner? No I'm not whining at all. I'm just sick of this hobby being bastardized by every Tom,Dick and Harry who thinks they are a coin dealer. When all they are is opportunists ripping off uneducated people. Then I have to give the bad news to them when they get upset that their set is only worth 900.00 and they paid 2500.00. I have a simple solution to this problem. Anyone who sells coins should have a license to sell coins. All the others should get a real job and stop trying to do something they no nothing about.
Washington's marriage to Martha greatly increased his property holdings and social standing, and made him one of Virginia's wealthiest men. He acquired one-third of the 18,000 acre (73 km²) Custis estate upon his marriage, worth approximately $100,000, and managed the remainder on behalf of Martha's children, for whom he sincerely cared.[40] He frequently bought additional land in his own name and was granted land in what is now West Virginia as a bounty for his service in the French and Indian War. By 1775, Washington had doubled the size of Mount Vernon to 6,500 acres (26 km2), and had increased the slave population there to more than 100 persons. As a respected military hero and large landowner, he held local office and was elected to the Virginia provincial legislature, the House of Burgesses, beginning in 1758.[41]
Doesn't sound like he traded anything for a business.
Wahington Cont'd-
A successful planter, he was a leader in the social elite in Virginia. From 1768 to 1775, he invited some 2000 guests to his Mount Vernon estate, mostly those he considered "people of rank." As for people not of high social status, his advice was to "treat them civilly" but "keep them at a proper distance, for they will grow upon familiarity, in proportion as you sink in authority.".[46] In 1769 he became more politically active, presenting the Virginia Assembly with legislation to ban the importation of goods from Great Britain.[47]
You really do need another life and line of work evil flipper.
" I have a simple solution to this problem. Anyone who sells coins should have a license to sell coins."
Nice summation of the anti-flipper position. Let's add regulation. Wouldn't limiting the number of dealers be the antithesis of your complaining about the limited number of APs creating a monopoly? I believe you are now talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Actually I believe having many more APs would increase the chance for a more competitive playing field for consumers. Yes the consumer protection agency should look into this ATB scandal and there would be violations found that lead to suspensions. The dealers should be regulated to show proof of fair trade to keep the industry from becoming a run away disaster like wall street. Dealers should be checked frequently for unscrupulous coin doctoring and over pricing cash only sales to the public. Cash only sales should be eliminated by all licensed dealers. The TPGs should be forced to remove all price guides and all unfair marketing scams like fraudulent labeling. And YES people found to be selling on ebay and other venues should be audited by the IRS to see if they are paying taxes on their sales. And that is coming out of my experience dealer with this industry that is in need of change for the protection of the consumers. NOT both sides of my mouth.
I think its kinda funny that you are so concerned about the uneducated coin buyer. I believe this "uneducated" coin buyer is really just a bunch of speculators who don't blog as much as the rest of us. I sold my house to a speculator from California during the bubble. Was I morally wrong for selling the house for market price or should I have informed the speculator that I "thought" there might be a housing bubble and that I would like to sell him the house at a much lower price so if the bubble bursts, he won't get hurt as bad? You make no sense what so ever. I think this is a simple case of jealousy of those who have obtained sets for low prices. Get a life.
I expected a bull crap excuse like jealousy. If something had been done well ahead of the housing bubble to stop all the unscrupulous sales and outrageous over pricing. The housing bubble would have never happened.The fact that the market was being over priced caused the housing bubble. The fact that people making 50% of the required incomes were able to buy housing was also the cause of the housing failure. Now there are regulations put in place to stop these issues from reoccurring. You obviously know nothing from history concerning bubbles. And I probably blog way more then you ever will concerning these problems. So next time you make accusations you know nothing about. You should look at history and do all you can to make sure it does not repeat it self.
Any new info, if any APS are selling the 5 OZ ATB to public?
Wow, we're really comparing the housing bubble now to the ATB 5 ounce silver coins?
I view anyone that makes an uneducated purchasing decision as doing the market as a whole a favor. We are putting more money in the hands of people that know how to better allocate funds to the economy as a whole. The seller is wise to sell when prices are high and will buy under appreciated goods and raise the value of them with the newfound funds. The market as a whole is better. The only loser is the uneducated buyer who has learned a painful lesson, but will hopefully become a more informed purchaser is the future.
I really thought Michael would be on top of the ATBs and where they may be available. But, it appears that the whole numismatic industry has kept much of the availability hush hush in order to leak these out to only the few that plan to keep the prices high by cornering the market with only unscrupulous sellers. I can only hope that the investigation underway brings out the wrong doings of this series from the very start.
to: 3:42 PM
your philosophy is the exact philosophy that will take this nation down. Your basically saying it is ok to hype up a product over it's actual value just so you can move on to the next and do it again. Oh, and by the way screw the uneducated because they will learn a valuable lesson from it.
People like you are ruining this hobby and the future of this country.
3:56, its capitalist and entrepreneurs that built this country, if you don't believe in this that is your choice. You embellished and added your own words around hype, but even if people fall for hype/advertising that is their own free choice and if they make a bad decision based on hype they will hopefully learn from the experience. One man's hype is another's truth. There is no one decision maker on price over time, it takes a market. Economics in a capitalist society is a harsh reality sometimes.
If you prefer communism or socialism with a high degree of government controls on the marketplace, I am sure you could find a way to move to a place like that. People that want this are ruining this country and what it was built upon.
Tell that to the people of this country who bailed out wall street and the housing market. You simply misunderstand the importance of fair market value and the ability to have competition over a market place that is not cornered and controlled much like the ATB market has been controlled. Do you really want the regulations to be handed down much like they were after the wall street bail out and the housing market crash. Because if this market manipulation continues on such things as the ATB. There will be regulations put in place to stop them. So the hype and overpricing of these ATBs are the first step that the market manipulators will cause this to happen. GET IT NOW. Stop being so greedy and put an honest price on these ATBs so everyone gets an equal opportunity to acquire one that wants one. I guess I could say this until I'm blue in the face. Because greed seems to blind all these people from seeing what it will cause.
Personally, I bought my set at 879 from apmex, but I haven't sold it. I believe I probably should sell it because the market is willing to pay me a very good return for it, but I am also a collector and would like a complete set as I really enjoy our National Parks and have visited many of them. However, if someone wants to sell their set and someone is willing to pay 3000 for it, so be it. I am not arrogant and/or foolish enough to believe I know the "right" price at any point in time, I only know what the market tells me.
"There is no one decision maker on price over time, it takes a market."
I totally agree when the market is not controlled by the APs who signed a contract and continue to breach that contract by not fulfilling their contractual obligations. The market was then artificially set. So what you know is only a market that had never been given a fair market value with equal competition. But, that will come in time when the regulations are set because of the greed ridden market controllers. You better sell your set sooner rather then later if you plan on being one of the ones who let greed take over their emotions over honesty and integrity.
I agree with the hold and save collectors and judicious dealers who are in the business for the long term and have built up their collections and inventory over time. I really wonder if there is any benefit to flipping beyond the instant flourish of cash and the associated need to brag. All-in-all a short term project at best. If it comes easy it may go easier. At least with a collection you have a firm foundation and can enjoy the hobby. For example, I purchased the 32 coin Olympic set from the mint in '95-96, and it is still in my collection in the original wooden (cherry) case with that funny key in a red pouch, and the original documents and COAs. Will I part with it - yes - if I need the funds for my family. But for now the value has appreciated (with the price of Au) three or more fold, and I don't even think about it. I just like the coins and it reminds me of the highs of that Olympics Centennial, some of which were Michael Johnson powering to an unbelievable records in the 200m/400, Ali lighting the flame, Agassi's gold, and Kurt Angle's victory with a broken neck!
to 1:50pm :
It is obvious that you and I will disagree on this topic all the way to the grave. I'm curious though...were you able to get your set from apmex....MTB....or Fidelitrade??? You blog way more than me so you would have known when they released some of their sets. You got a set right? yeeahhhhh.
I don't think that this is the end of the hobby. People who only flip coins probably aren't true collectors. If flippers are preventing a true collector from getting a coin because they have jacked the price up, then that coin might just be out of reach. As a collector myself, there are plenty of coins that I would die to have, but they are just too darn expensive for me to buy. What makes them so expensive? Market value! No, I didn't say "fair" market value because, how can it be fair that a single lincoln cent worth 1 penny face value from 1909 with an s on it be so expensive. I guess that's just the way its always been, we're just not use to it happening with modern coins. We will never stop folks from trying to make as much profit as they can. It's silly to expect everyone to ignore what the market is doing. I've always found that most coins that I collect are the same ones that everyone else wants too. That's why I end up paying hundreds of dollars for a penny. Its the same with these pucks in my opinion. It really is simple supply and demand.
Comparing a 1909 S VDB to a modern day commemorative and bullion at that is completely insane. The 1909 S VDBs were not at the time of release entrusted to gougers who made sure only the rich would get them and control there distribution and market prices. To dismiss this control as "out of reach" is just uneducated and not following what happened from the beginning of the release to present day. At least in 1909 there wasn't the amount of dishonesty that there is today. It's a shame that our hobby has resorted to such changes. "OUT OF REACH ?" LOL. What a joke.
"It really is simple supply and demand."
I keep hearing this bogus claim too.
Yeah it's simple alright. Just control the supply and make the demand LOL. How pathetic is that for reversing the way true supply and demand works in a fair market condition.
I got a set of ATB 5 oz Bullion coins for under $900. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Everyone has had an opportunity to get a cheap set. If you missed the boat then you are just not in the loop. Keep reading the blogs and when everyone starts freaking out, get in on the action. Its that simple. I'm on my second set from Fidelitrade now. Be on the lookout for Dillon Gage and Apmex. They will be selling in the next week or two. There is no artificial supply and demand here. The proof will be when the 27000 sets sell out in the first day when the US Mint releases the P version. Low supply= 60000 sets High Demand= more than 60000 buyers. Wow, thats a hard concept to grasp.
To: 8:01 PM
I will also agree to disagree with you and forgive your insistence that you really think I have no set. That would be much easier for you to accept as a reason for my total disagreement of your position. That way you can just go away thinking that your dishonesty is ok. And you can also stop blogging because your position is looking worse with every word you type. But I must admit that it has been fun winning a debate with you. Please do try to come up with some new material though. The old worn out excuses are just much to easy to defuse.
I don't think either of us truly set the ground rules for this "debate", but I forgive your insistence that you have won said debate. I hope that we also could agree that its completely pathetic that we are up this late talking about overpriced silver bullion. Nighty Night.
PS...I sold my apmex set for $2700 on ebay....honestly....i did.
"There is no artificial supply and demand here."
BWAHAHAHA !!!!! YEAH RIGHT !!!!
"talking about overpriced silver bullion."
At least you admit it is over priced. I do forgive you. No reason to insist I won the debate with that admittance. Good night.
" It really is simple supply and demand."
EXACTLY!
Spoken like a true flipper
I wonder how many people read these back and forth argument comments and simply shake their heads? :)
Democracy in the making showing both sides is always entertaining.It's the side that wins that shows intelligence.
Hello all, I am new to this blog. I cannot understand the extremes of both sides. I have been a small time collector for years and think bullion is a good mix for investments, who knows where paper money or stocks will be in 10 years. I have read most of the posts and see both sides. I think alot of collectors are both buyers and sellers. I will sometimes buy more than I need for my collection in the hopes of selling some of them off in the future, at a profit to pay for the ones I kept. I am not greedy or preying on an uneducated buyer. If I list an item on ebay and list it at $0.99 I figure the final price is the true market price. I buy on ebay as well. Unless you are a socialist or communist no one has a problem with this. America was built on capitaism. making a profit is as American as apple pie. It does not matter if you sell cars, houses, tires, or coins. We all work or own companies in the pretext of making money and yes we all wish we were making more! I do not believe in price gouging and most people I think feel the same way. We were all upset after 9-11 when gas surged $1-2 more per gallon the same day and most States sanctioned those few dealers. I use to collect more in the past but due my personal monetary condition I slowed down and now I am back to collecting. I wish I were in on the 5 ounce ATB but I was not in line and getting them now is not feasible, the dealers are asking a pretty mark up. I will be watching the mint closely to see when they will offer them and I think if you are not on top of it they will be sold out in a blink of an eye. You can never perdict which ones will take off in price other than noting the mint quantity and time of sale. I do not care for the fact and I am sure most of you also do not care that the mint sells bullion only to authorized dealers. I feel like we are offered the leftovers. I see no need for this since the mint has the ability to offer all products directly to the public. But back to the ATB I am happy with those who were able to get them at a reasonable price and the mint really does need to look into those dealers who have withheld their ATB's and are waiting to sell them later or to another "insider" or friend who can get around the mints guidelines on selling them to the public. From what I have read it appears some of the less reputable dealers are getting around the mints rules of 1 per customer and the price guide and selling them for $2-$3,000.00. The dealers the mint uses must be held to a higher standard so this does not occur. I have found a company that is offering a ATB set with a new account set up. I called and they said I was locked in for one and a account rep will call back within a week, of course since they are a gold & bullion dealer I am sure they will try to hard sell me to buy bullion from them. I might but most likely will not. Since everyone on this sit are coin collectors we can share and learn from another without the personal comments. I am by no means an angel and I do not think what people call a flipper is has that great of an influence on coin prices. I appreciate coin collecting for art, knowledge/learning as well as building a nest egg and if people "flip" coins it is there right and nothing can be done to stop this and there is absolutly nothing wrong with making money legally. one of the posters made a somewhat sarcastic comment to another about telling ther kids to sell there coins at 1950 prices, he was right who would do so. When we collect coins we would not buy them if we thought they would be less in the future and added the pleasure of coin collecting is the added benifit that they will build in value as time goes by. Anyway I have typed more now than I have in the last week. any comments are welcome positive as well as negative as we never stop learning. Good night all!
To 11:52 pm "I have found a company that is offering a ATB set with a new account set up. I called and they said I was locked in for one..."
" Since everyone on this site are coin collectors we can share and learn from another without the personal comments."
Well, aren't you forgetting to share something with us ?
Didn't think so.
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