Mint News Blog

News, Information, and Commentary on US Mint Products

Thursday, June 23, 2011

Yosemite Five Ounce Silver Uncirculated Coins on Waiting List

The US Mint has posted a "waiting list" notice for the 2010-P Yosemite National Park Five Ounce Silver Uncirculated Coin.
This notice signifies that the United States Mint has received orders to meet the maximum mintage limit for the product. Orders are still being accepting, but they will go on a waiting list, which will be fulfilled on a first come, first served basis in the event that any coins become available due to order cancellations.

Sales figures for the third numismatic release had been trending slower than the previous releases, which makes the apparent sell out an unexpected development.

The Yosemite coin went on sale June 9, 2011. Through the first US Mint sales report on June 12, total sales had reached 20,511 units. In the following week, sales of 2,593 units were recorded to bring the total to 23,104 on June 19. If the waiting list notice is correct, then an additional 3,896 have been sold since that date to reach the maximum mintage of 27,000 coins.

In total, the Yosemite National Park Five Ounce Silver Uncirculated Coins have been available for 14 days before the waiting list notice was posted. This compares to availability of 15 days each for the prior two releases featuring Hot Springs and Yellowstone National Park.

Other News

Yesterday, the US Mint reduced the price of the 2011 Proof Platinum Eagle. Since the start of sales on May 26, 2011, the coins had been priced at $2,092 each. The new price is $1,992 per coin, reflecting an average platinum price within the $1,650 to $1,749.99 range.

Today, the US Mint officially announced the details for the fourth numismatic ATB five ounce silver coin featuring Grand Canyon National Park. Sales will begin on June 29, 2011 at 12:00 Noon ET. The price per coin will remain at $279.95, and the same ordering limit of one coin per household will be imposed.

Details of the 2011 Proof Silver Eagle were also announced. Nothing has changed from the preliminary details provided earlier this month. Sales will begin on June 30, 2011. The coins will be priced at $59.95 each, and an initial ordering limit of 100 coins per household will be in place. There is no maximum mintage limit established.

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126 Comments:

At June 23, 2011 at 2:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

seems like the pucks for 2010 shall sell out. 2011 if the same # made may be a tough sell

 
At June 23, 2011 at 3:02 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suspect foul play. The Mint is trying to make sure demand doesn't fizzle before all of the already-struck 2010 coins are sold.

Think about it. We have absolutely no way of knowing if 27,000 orders have REALLY been placed. Orders made now that are supposedly going on a waiting list are really going through like any normal order. Then, when the people who ordered after the waiting list notice was posted get their coins, they will simply think they were lucky enough to get one.

It makes sense, doesn't it? :)

 
At June 23, 2011 at 3:52 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is an interesting development. It looked like the big boys were starting to run out of steam but not so. The demand appears consistent for now. The question is what is the proposed mintage for the 2011 big boys and if its the same will the demand remain.

Although on a per oz. basis the cost is in line for silver offerings. However, these things are expensive due to the large "bite" for a silver coin one has to take to get one.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 4:29 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder how many people saw the 6/19 sales report and felt it would be safe to wait until 6/29 when they could purchase both the Yosemite and Grand Canyon together?

 
At June 23, 2011 at 4:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

No reason to believe that the 2010 series won't sell out. First of a series that probably won't go for more than a couple years. Hand on to them folks. All those negative people that laugh now , will be crying big time in 5 years. I can afford to sit and wait, they aren't eating a thing at my house!

 
At June 23, 2011 at 4:45 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree! As a collector my primary interest is in collecting these units. I too feel they will be winners in the long run but this is a minor issue at this point. The US Mint has done an excellent job in ensuring that all who want a unit can get one directly from the source at the best possible price.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 4:46 PM , Anonymous VG said...

Some collectors can be penny wise, pound foolish. To take a chance and wait to save $4.95 on OVERNIGHT shipping for a $280 coin to try and combine two is just silly. I mean, in the big picture of collecting and Mint purchases, it shouldn't even be a factor. It always sounds good but I'm sure those who waited to order 5 oz. ATB Yosemite with Grand Canyon would now GLADLY pay that $4.95 shipping to get Yosemite.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 5:44 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those that want to delay grading their coins so far all the five oz unc's are first strike or early release no matter how long you wait to grade them. They need a new category like "First day of shipping."

 
At June 23, 2011 at 5:55 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Got my Yosemite ATB P coin earlier this week and it is a beauty just like the first two - I hope my good luck continues.

I'm strongly considering buying a 2011 W AGE unc next week when I order the GC ATB P coin - I hope gold prices don't go up - better yet I wish gold would go below $1500 (it's @ about $1525 now) so they would lower prices a little - but I'm expecting prices will go much higher before long so I'd better just focus on buying before they do.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 8:44 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

4:46 makes a really good point about taking the risk to save less than $5 by purchasing two coins and combining shipping...I have been considering waiting until the 30th to purchase both the silver proof eagle and the Grand Canyon "P". This is a slight risk but I think I should be all right???

 
At June 23, 2011 at 9:08 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's very unlikely the Grand Canyon "P" coin will sell out in one day based on the sales rate of the first 3 P coins which have been consistently taking 2 weeks to sell out so waiting one day to get the combined shipping should be safe and the smart thing to do.

I wonder if the mint put these coins on a waiting list now to increase sales because they didn't want people waiting until the 29th to try and buy both P coins to save on shipping and then the Yosemite P coins might actually sell out and that would create more problems for the mint with a lot of orders being cancelled - just a thought.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 9:21 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The way the mint has strategically listed the 2010 ATB P coins for sale they obviously don't want them to be sold together for some reason - maybe that's why the sales dates of the first three wasn't announced until the sales figures of the previous coins were known so they knew how closely they could space them out to prevent sales of more than one coin at a time.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 9:30 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't see the reason why the Mint is not releasing all the 2010 coins at once in one batch like they did with the bullion. Maybe they try to make money on shipping? and possibly a strategy to suck every single penny from your wallet.
By the time they release 2011 coins, people will be tired of buying specially if silver prices continue to weaken. It'll be interesting to see the pricing for the 2011 set.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 9:36 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this might just be a strategy to keep people interested in buying consistently all year since these coins are so popular right now - not so much that they want people to spend more on shipping - again just a thought.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 9:51 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poor suckers that bought the plat proof for around $2100 now that platinium is only slightly over $1700.

 
At June 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The mint just shipped my yosemite a few days ago, but I had backordered the yellowstone (when it was available to backorder)...well, I'm still waiting on it. No word yet.

Anyone have any ideas why? Seems strange to me

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:46 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm waiting like many others to have all five 2010 before I have them graded. The first three might be 70, however there is a lot of area to have something wrong. One can always dream!!!
It will be interesting to see what a perfect set of 2010 will sell for?

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:54 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why have them graded? Keep them in the original government packaging. You really need a 70 to increase its value. A 68 would de-value your coin.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:56 AM , Anonymous VG said...

I can't see how the Mint can make money on shipping by charging only $4.95 for UPS overnight delivery. That's the same amount for USPS Priority Mail which is anywhere from 2-4 days shipping. My bet is that they lose money and the difference is covered by their huge markup margins.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 4:19 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

pm's are down a little more this morning - below $1520 - I hope it keeps on going so mint prices might be lower

 
At June 24, 2011 at 5:33 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the anon at 9:51 - I'm disappointed with the big drop in platinum, but the main reason I bought to begin with was because I liked the coin and not because I'm planning on flipping it.

To the anon at 9:21 - The reason the Mint doesn't sell all these together is because not all of us have $2800 to blow in one month on one set of coins - some of us are on a budget. In order to get my hands on the platinum eagle, I had to liquidate a big chunk of my junk silver holdings. The fact that the Mint is selling the pucks about once a month has been a godsend for my wallet, which has been punished this year by the high volume of numismatic releases.

One of the reason I passed on the 2010 bullion AtBs is precisely BECAUSE they were grouped together as a set to inflate the price at a time I couldn't afford to buy all five at once!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 6:48 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I haven't seen any comments from "Grandpa" lately. I hope he's still with us!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 6:52 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The bullion ATB's from the AP's weren't inflated. In fact, it was a huge score for us who bought them given the spot price of silver when they were available for sale and what we actually paid (especially the sets that were slabbed for those who care about that stuff).

But thankfully the numismatic pucks were spaced out like the above poster mentioned. It is easier on the budget and more enjoyable to purchase them like this. I like looking forward to something coming in the mail. Plus it is easier to make returns as individual pieces rather than as a set.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 7:16 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of grandpa reminds of a story about the little boy who ask his grandpa if he would croak like a frog. His grandpa ask him why and the little boy replied that his mom said when grandpa croaks the family is taking a trip to Hawaii.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 8:05 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Which do you guys think is the best place to buy the bullion 2011 ATB?

I have tried Gainsville and got 4 outta 4 coins in a flimsy plastic holder with finger prints all over them.

Then I tried Provident and got 2 outta 2 coins with marks in the outer ring that look like they could be from a scratched/broken die or something.

Anyone have any luck with other dealers?

-Mike

 
At June 24, 2011 at 8:22 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mike,

If you call Fidelitrade at 1-800-223-1080, you can talk to a representative there and request special packaging for the 2011 bullion ATB's. I haven't done it yet but I think I will give them a call to get the details.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:08 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

You can try any of the other AP's as well. Most of these guys don't cherry pick because it's just bullion and they deal in large quantities. Maybe APMEX cherry picks but I can't be certain. When I got my 2010 sets, they were very random; some "perfect" looking and others fell on the floor a couple of times.

Like I mentioned, in reality, it's only bullion. Unfortunately there's a market for people who want this stuff graded for whatever reason. It's a boom for TPG's who can make a killing off grading hundreds of thousands of rounds of bullion! It almost ensures their longevity as quality old numismatic pieces (not modern ones) begin to dry up.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:09 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Plus, slap on First Strike on a piece of bullion and people pay more!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:09 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try APMEX. No finger prints just scratches.
Cherry pickers.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:53 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there any difference at all between the W and P mint mark version s of the silver 9/11 medals?

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:53 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if the 2011 P ATBs 5 oz will also be limited to 27,000?

 
At June 24, 2011 at 10:03 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally, I think there are hidden agendas.

I believe that the demand is out there for the 2010 ATB silver 5 ounce P coins.

You're just reading comments from a relatively small number of coin enthusiasts who are speculating on the future of the 2010 coins. Speculating is a fun game to play -- it gives us all something to think and dream about. But when it comes down to it, none of us can accurately predict the future....

 
At June 24, 2011 at 10:11 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's fun to go back and read about the 2009 UHR's on this site and how most people were wrong. Everyone talks with such confidence. A gold coin with 100,00+ minted and 27mm in diameter won't be worth much.

How wrong they were.

Only time will tell with the 2010 ATB bullion and the complete ATB numismatic series.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 10:26 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ June 24, 2011 10:11 AM

Agree totally. The small group of speculators on this blog (some of whom post multiple times) give the impression that they are experts. Truth is, everyone here speculates. No one can predict the future accurately....

 
At June 24, 2011 at 10:29 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I frankly think a lot of the people "talking down" the AtBs are speculators who hope that they will get more money if they scare buyers off and thus make the AtBs more rare.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 12:05 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm thinking- gas went down, people will have more money to buy mint products. temporarily.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 12:09 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gold is almost under 1500. Waiting for the Mint prices to adjust before I buy the AGE Unc.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 12:16 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gold is officially under $1500.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 12:49 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, less than $200 between gold and plat and closing!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 12:53 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

It looks like the downward trend in the gold price will have to continue for a few more days to possibly impact the Mint's prices. The first 4 London fix prices in next week's calculation were all solidly in the current pricing tier. Because of that, I don't think the average price will get low enough to trigger a price decrease next week, unless the price gets quite a bit lower and holds.

If it stays below $1,500 for another 10 days, then we should definitely get a decrease the week after next, provided the Wednesday PM fix is not between $1,500 and $1,549.99.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 1:27 PM , Anonymous VG said...

Here's the dilemma I wrestled with about sending in the 2010 P ATB's for grading to PCGS as it relates to waiting for all five or sending them in one release at a time. I want all of them to have the First Strike designation. I know it's pooh-poohed by many here, but it's worth the extra $18 it costs per coin on the secondary market as well as a long term investment. If you wait til all five are released, you have to send all of them in their unopened boxes to keep the First Strike designation. If you send in each release within 30 days of the first day of sale, you can open the package and inspect each coin before deciding on if it's worthy of grading and keep the First Strike designation. Either way, it is expensive, especially since both bullion and numismatic versions require an additional $20 for the oversized holder. I'm personally doing it because I believe the 2010's will be the most coveted since they are the first in the series as well as having the lowest mintages (so far.) I won't be doing it for the 2011's and beyond. As for my first submissions of Hot Springs that just came back, 2 graded SP69 and I hit it big with a SP70. There are only 167 with the SP70 grade at PCGS. This round was worth the gamble. Waiting for Yellowstone to come back any day. Just a little perspective I thought I'd share.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 2:09 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

i send 6 ATB hot springs P to NGC, 4 were graded SP-69ER and 2 got SP-70ER, i donot know if it was a good deal, personally what i see on fee-bay there are alot more PCGS coins graded 70, then NGC, which make me think its easy to get a 70 at PCGS then NGC, thats just my view

 
At June 24, 2011 at 2:13 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry to mention that i send the 6 coins out of 9 i have, 3 of them i didnot even send, my friend send 3 coins also to NGC and all 3 came back as SP-69ER, he is not happy, and he those 3 coins out of 12 he have,the tell you the mint quality sucks

 
At June 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess your friend wished he didn't have them graded. This is the reason why I don't have my coins graded anymore. Once you get 69s, you lose big time. The only winners are the TPGs getting your money.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

this time around. gold should be higher that platinum. both platinum and palladium were sucks. before 1964. those two metals were not even a part of circulated coins.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:06 PM , Anonymous VG said...

"Once you get 69s, you lose big time. The only winners are the TPGs getting your money."

If your ATB's come back graded SP69 and you sell them now, you'll just about break even. Who knows what they'll be worth down the road. However, you get an SP70 and you're ahead at least $300-$400. That's why some people gamble and some don't. We all have our preferences for our coins.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:25 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

But what you guys think about of so many SP-70 from PCGS and not NGC?

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:25 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

As I have posted before it always seems that the price of plat spikes right before the mint sells their new version and many say they can't regulate the prices. Last year plat spiked upon release then tanked after. This year looks to be the same case senario. The only reason to buy the 2011 is because you already have the first two years of issue in trying to build a whole set of six when completed. Back in 08 plat spiked at 2200 then sank to a low of 750. When the mint re-released the plat in Dec. 08 you could have bought an ounce for 1079---go figure!!!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 3:35 PM , Anonymous VG said...

"But what you guys think about of so many SP-70 from PCGS and not NGC?"

I know it's not easier to get an SP70 from PCGS than NGC. As stated before, there are only 167 graded SP70 for Hot Springs. That's out of 27,000 minted which is .006% Not a huge number.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 4:13 PM , Blogger SunTzu said...

You also have to consider how many have been submitted too.

I wonder what the likelihood is having them grade below a 69? Anyone get one back with with a 68 or less with the numismatic pieces?

Mine are in their OGP currently. If I plan to continue after 2010, I can't justify sending in every coin and paying those fees. It's just too much. I think years from now they will be very desirable having them gleaming in their OGP with your receipt as proof of authenticity. I find it to be more appealing and natural rather than tucked inside a tomb. I enjoy taking it out of it's packaging, examining it and then putting it back. If I got to sell decades from now I still think I would get a nice return.

For me, grading is for older numismatic pieces, not modern numismatic releases. Just my opinion. And don't get me started on people paying more for graded bullion!

 
At June 24, 2011 at 4:31 PM , Anonymous VG said...

I'm doing both, getting some graded but keeping one of each in their original Mint packaging. One of my Hot Springs 2010 P came back PCGS SP68. Disappointed but it's still beautiful.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 5:17 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you get a SP69 grade, you will not break even...you have about $335-$340 invested in that coin...which you would need to sell for about $385 on ebay to break even...and that is not happening.
Unless you get a SP70, you are better off leaving it in the OGP.

However, let me comment on the grades coins are receiveing...only about 32% of PCGS coins have gotten a SP70 grade. I really expected the "numismatic" version with all the attention, handling and care they would receive from the Mint...to have about 2/3 get a 70. And SP68's are not all that uncommon.
As was posted earlier...if you want the PCGS FS designation, you have to either send it in within 30 days or send it later in the OGP. I would not risk sending one in for grading without inspecting it first myself.

I would grade my HS coin as a SP68 as it has a ding on the rim..my other too look like SP70's.

Anyway...bottom line, I anticipated that the 2010-P's would grade much better than they have thus far.

It makes me feel even better about have a MS69PL/DMPL bullion set.

I've mentioned this before, so if you've already seen this, I apologize...but I think the 2010 Bullion will be the KEY to the bullion ATB series. The 2011 have mintages of 126,500.
The KEY to the numismatic version can not say the same for the 2010's.
Just like the First Spouse series...no matter what the maximum mintages are, many will do good to sell 10,000.
So...down the road, the 2010's have the advantage of the most popular parks, so likely a higher customer base. Will the less known parks with lower sales be worth more?
No one knows at this point. I'm buying all five of the 2010-P's and after that will play the mintage(or rather, how many sold game) with a few exceptions like the coin from my home State, etc

I just think that would really set these coins on fire is if the public was more aware of the ATB quarter series...most people know about the State Park quarters and have received them in change...but not many have seen a ATB quarter.
Sooo...it may takes 2 or 3 years before these things take off as the public becomes aware of them.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 5:56 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I purchased 2011 ATB in mint sealed tube. Only one out of 20 has a scrath, others are fine. No hurry in grading, including the 2010 ATB-P (FS means nothing to me since I intend to keep them for at least 20 yrs), will wait until seeing the value above melt before spending all the money for expensive slab.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 7:12 PM , Anonymous Louis said...

For anyone who is interested, I just had an article published on MS70 coins in Coin Week. Check out the comment from a dealer at the end, who pays more for OGP than for 70's, but take that with a grain of salt as it depends on the coins and depends on the dealer:

http://www.coinweek.com/news/featured-news/are-ms-70-coins-value-traps/

I welcome any comments here or you can post them at Coin Week at the end of my articles.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM , Anonymous Soapy said...

6/24/11 3:36 pm
"I know it's not easier to get an SP70 from PCGS than NGC. As stated before, there are only 167 graded SP70 for Hot Springs. That's out of 27,000 minted which is .006% Not a huge number."

It would suprise me if ALL 27,000 had been graded by those (or any other) service. I, for one, will never have mine graded. I would venture to guess that 20% or less have been subjected to same.

Perhaps a few dozen more once all five 2010's have been released.

Am I the only collector out here that feels NO need to have my COLLECTION graded?

For ME collecting is fun. A "grade" from some "service" does not make it more so.

 
At June 24, 2011 at 10:24 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

My "P" units will remain OGP. I cannot stand the thought of trading the unique and remarkable OGP for an idiotic plastic slab with an equally asinine label. These TPGs are only fooling themselves and flippers. In the long run the slabbed coins will develop spots, toning, and lamination.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 1:07 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any silver coin that is not stored in the proper environment will deteriorate. I have a proof silver dollar (comm) which remained in its capsule for years but which was not stored in an inert environment, and the coin looks like crap now. That has never happened to any slabbed coins I own. And anyway PCGS and NGC will buy the coin back from you if damage occurs (except for cooper coins which are almost impossible to prevent from changing over time).

 
At June 25, 2011 at 5:15 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have silver coins from the 1960s in OGP that look perfect. Some have cool toning, none "look like crap".

 
At June 25, 2011 at 6:06 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree. I have proof sets from the 1950's and some have cool purple toning and others look perfect. None look like crap.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 6:31 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

It all depends on what your crappy definition of crap is.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 6:53 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

*** And anyway PCGS and NGC will buy the coin back from you if damage occurs ***

Good Luck!

I tried to get a refund from PCGS for some coins they destroyed immediately after slabbing. Guess what they did!

 
At June 25, 2011 at 8:26 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Slabbing coins is a preference and should be considered as such. It is my belief that any coin that needs authentication. If you are lazy and have the money to use one of the top grading companies. Then that is your preference. If you want to not learn about how to authenticate a coin then I believe you are just in it for investment only and want to flip using the high grade prices to maximize your earnings of profits.

The problem I see in the modern day bullion coins is that dealers are taking advantage of the unknowing on these 70 grade ASEs Where millions are minted. The first strike is also another method used to take advantage of the unknowing. There are millions of these folks.

I've never been a believer in First Strike because the First Strike adage is very misleading to most unknowing buyers. The word First Strike implies that the coins were struck first. When in fact there is no proof of that stated by the US Mint.

In 2006 there were huge lawsuits against NGC and PCGS. PCGS simply paid off the lawyers to continue their use of the First Strike designation. And were only forced to explain their rendition of what they believe a First Strike is.

The old adage that a fool and his money are soon parted really takes place in this scenario. I for one only buy in OGP. Or if bullion I buy the raw coins much cheaper and closer to spot. I'm not all about flipping and look at PMs as long term investments. The love of history and the beauty of the coins comes first for me.

The 2010 ATB bullion coins may be the first and only acception to the bullion rule. And that is only because the US Mint announced such a low mintage on them. Making them the lowest mintage silver coins in history

That is the difference between a flipper and a true coin collector.

As far as the coins holding up better in a slab vs an OGP is complete unfounded and in contrary IMHO the exact opposite is the case. The gases omitted onto a coin during the sealing process has proven to be harmful to the long term effect of the coins in the slabs.Environment over all means everything to the longevity of a coin.

If you look at PCGSs web sight and watch their grading videos and other videos. They clearly show PCGS employees handling the coins improperly with bare hands during the grading process. This was enough for me to call this a no brainer for not having my coins improperly handle by a supposed professional grading service.

In the end it is always up to the buyer. Just use your judgment and learn how to authenticate your own coins. Because in the future and even now. More and more people are becoming privy to all of these tactics used to take more money out of your coin collecting pocket.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 8:48 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

to slab or not to slab - that is the question

 
At June 25, 2011 at 8:54 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not to slab!

 
At June 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a non-slabber myself - OGP airtight capsules are good enough for me

 
At June 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The TPG's are providing something enough people want its a profitable business. If enough people want a turd in a punch bowl then you will see them on eBay and a business will be set up to produce them. ITS ALWAYS ABOUT DEMAND and not production. If something is produced that few or no one wants then what have you got: a low production item of minimal value.

But this too can change with time or other circumstances. Something of minimal value 100 yrs ago may become of great value today. A loaf of bread may now be two bucks. After a world wide disaster or famine maybe ten bucks or more. If someone is stranded in a desert what do they want: a jug of water or a roll of silver dollars.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 11:35 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

A few years ago I bought a clean gold PF70 coin in a PCGS slab. A month later it turned dark orange/brown. Has anyone else had that happen?

None of my NGC coins have ever done that.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 11:51 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Same here. Some of my PCGS slabbed gold coins showed toning/tarnish, but not my NGC slabbed ones. Something wrong with the PCGS slab material?

 
At June 25, 2011 at 12:08 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have sold all my commorative coins which were graded by PCGS both MS70 and PR70DCAM along with my ASE as well. If I decided to keep the grade 70s for my kids, I only keep the NGC's 70s, cause non of my NGC slabbed coins give that kind of problems and worries.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 12:23 PM , Blogger SunTzu said...

I bought a burnished AGE on Feebay that was PCGS MS70 for a phenomenal price. That's why I bought it! When I got it, upon closer examination, it was loaded with rust-like splotching on it. The seller was kind enough to allow me return it and he even credited me a few dollars to my PayPal account for return shipping. He was an awesome seller.

I don't know if that means PCGS holders are less air tight than NGC, but I've experienced some of the issues here that people have described.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 1:33 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I read some article before that coins in slabs are being faked in China and has made it here in the US. Any truth to this or how widespread it is?

 
At June 25, 2011 at 2:16 PM , Blogger SunTzu said...

I read the same thing. They are getting better at it too. They are researching the certificate numbers and labeling the slabs accordingly so you would never know that it was fake.

Many like the CAC sticker as a means to ward off the potential for your coin to be a fake.

My friend's friend has a bunch of fake gold quarter eagles (unknowingly). Sent them in to NGC and all came back in body bags. He bought them raw from the same dealer. We urged him to file a complaint with the police but he never did. Don't know if they were from China but I researched it and found that the quarter eagle was one of the most commonly counterfeited gold coins.

If you Google "counterfeit china PCGS" or "fake China PCGS" you can read a lot of articles.

Interesting but very disturbing and aggravating stuff. The Chinese steal or reverse engineer all our proprietary technology and secrets.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 2:32 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

would you even no what a roman finish unc silver eagle looked like if you saw one .ngc and pcgs will only label them mint state until the mint tells them something dif.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 3:22 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Slabbing definitely has its issues esp. for modern stuff, but if you buy pre-1933 gold, or better Morgans raw, you are asking for trouble. I bought a quarter eagle a couple years ago (raw) from one of the better bullion dealers who has been in business 50 years, and I sent it for grading, and they told me it was a fake. Fortunately the seller gave me a full refund, but if I had not had it graded, I would never had known. And not all fakes come from China.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 8:17 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

> I bought a burnished AGE on Feebay that was PCGS MS70 for a phenomenal price. That's why I bought it! When I got it, upon closer examination, it was loaded with rust-like splotching on it. The seller was kind enough to allow me return it and he even credited me a few dollars to my PayPal account for return shipping. He was an awesome seller.


I had the exact same experience with PCGS a while back. I had sent in several gold commems which dated back to the mid 90's. They were in their capsules in OGP and nothing happened to them. I made the BIGGEST MISTAKE sending them into PCGS for grading thinking that they would come back "protected." They came back alright significantly coated with the rust colored material you mention. Their solution was to take the coins and put them in an ultrasonic cleaner with etchant, re-slab them, and send them back to me. Needless to say I was p***ed and complained. I finally got a mail from that Hall who was running the outfit back then saying it was not their resposibility. I think the word should come out that in addition to their faking the "first strike" nonsense they also handle your coins poorly and return them without the original mint surfaces. THIS IMHO IS A VERY BIG ISSUE. After this experience I have completely eschewed TPGs and grading entirely.




>I read some article before that coins in slabs are being faked in China and has made it here in the US. Any truth to this or how widespread it is?

This is very scary. Considering that many of us invest hard earned $ in coins makes me think that the USMint is THE ONLY HONEST SOURCE for original coins.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 9:08 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try APMEX: They will sell you scratched coins in graded cases.

 
At June 25, 2011 at 9:15 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding first strike with pcgs, wouldn't all the atb's qualify for it because they all sold within 30 days. So if you sent one in a year from now it should qualify right. Or does the box need to be sealed. Just curious.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 4:22 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have read several comments about the 2010 ATB 5 ounce silver P coins being "winners."

If they are indeed winners, then why are they are selling at relatively small amounts above their sales prices on eBay?

Sales prices of say, $80 above retail prices, is a relatively small amount (about 28%) of profit. Will sales prices increase in the future?

Like the gold First Spouse coins, unless there is an unexpected sell out or low mintage coin (to include an error), then I do not see much long-term demand for the coins in the future.

Take a look at the 50 State Quarters series as well. How many flippers invested $100s in state quarters, hoping they would increase in price? Sure there are exceptions, but spending $100s in the hopes of getting one or two exceptions certainly is not worth it to me.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 5:35 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:15
Great point. PCGS are a bunch of scammers.
At least NGC's "early release" makes sense.
PCGS was the top grading service, now NGC is, period!

 
At June 26, 2011 at 6:18 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I mailed a UHR to PCGS for grading and it came back with a spot on the OBV. (Wasn't there when I sent it).
Thought it was an aberration, but from the earlier remarks this seems to be an ongoing QC problem with PCGS

 
At June 26, 2011 at 6:52 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't see how 2010 P can be big winners either. Those selling on Ebay barely broke even after selling fees. Some bought in hope to make big money but end up selling to get their money back. Future issues may fall below 27,000.
The 2010 bullion have a better chance IMO since the rest will probably be more than 30,000.
After all if it ain't rare, it would be hard to a winner.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 7:07 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I mailed a UHR to PCGS for grading and it came back with a spot on the OBV. (Wasn't there when I sent it).
Thought it was an aberration, but from the earlier remarks this seems to be an ongoing QC problem with PCGS"

I am glad others have observed this too. Back in 2009, I sent 4 Gold Buffalo proofs to PCGS for grading but took pictures of them before I mail them. They looked perfect. I received all 4 back with haze marks on them (PR69DCAM). I am not sure if there was a handling issue or even if they were the same coins. That was the last time I sent coins to PCGS.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 7:38 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I mailed a UHR to PCGS for grading and it came back with a spot on the OBV. (Wasn't there when I sent it).
Thought it was an aberration, but from the earlier remarks this seems to be an ongoing QC problem with PCGS"

Just like the US Mint, the grading companies are involved in a secret cover up to downgrade the quality of certified coins. PCGS has a big stake in this effort, since the stricter they are in handing out MS70 and PR70 ratings, the more valuable their certified coins become.

It's all about $$ and profits for PCGS. If you think they have your interests in heart, think again.... LOL.


---------------
I am glad others have observed this too. Back in 2009, I sent 4 Gold Buffalo proofs to PCGS for grading but took pictures of them before I mail them. They looked perfect. I received all 4 back with haze marks on them (PR69DCAM). I am not sure if there was a handling issue or even if they were the same coins. That was the last time I sent coins to PCGS.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 8:16 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 2011-P ATB 5 oz coins might have more potential than the 2010's. Due to the relatively low secondary market prices for the 2010's, many of the buyers of those might not bother with the 2011's, especially if the maximum mintage is increased to 50,000 or more coins. There's no guarantee the maximum will be increased, but due to the much higher mintage of the bullion versions it makes sense that the Mint would offer more "numismatic" versions as well. It's even possible that the price of the 2011's will be higher than the 2010's, because the silver the Mint bought to strike them was a lot higher than the silver for the 2010's. A higher sales price would make even more would-be buyers bail out.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 8:31 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

might and if are the pronlems with anyone's predictions - only time will tell

 
At June 26, 2011 at 8:41 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have some MS69 ASE's from NGC I have had for several years with some very small toning spots. I have wondered it the plastic case or capsule emits a residue that interacts with the metal. Has anyone ever noticed a light filmy residue on the inside of a car windshield. Isn't that film something that is emitted from the plastic in the vehicle?

 
At June 26, 2011 at 8:57 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good point about the windshield! I detail cars on the side in my driveway to make extra cash under the table that I use for my coin hobby/investments. So I am keenly aware of that hazy film that forms but never thought of why it does that.

I have a complete set of NGC MS69's ASE Unc's. I bought them a couple years ago and have been adding each year. I have milk-like spotting on a couple and I have noticed with the ones slabbed in the 1986 NGC "1 of 50,000 struck" holders, a ton of them are milky looking too. Weird.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 9:00 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

pm's will be trading again in a few hours - as a buyer and long term investor I hope they keep going lower

 
At June 26, 2011 at 9:14 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have sold all my commorative coins which were graded by PCGS both MS70 and PR70DCAM along with my ASE as well. If I decided to keep the grade 70s for my kids, I only keep the NGC's 70s, cause non of my NGC slabbed coins give that kind of problems and worries.

June 25, 2011 12:08 PM

I wrote the above comment yesterday. I was glad to sell my 2010 Silver Quarter PF70 FS for $900 on eBay early this year and purchased 2010 NGC PF70 set for only $160. They are the same coins from US Mint. At least I don't have to worry much about spotting and tonning since I'm going to keep them for my children. I don't have any problem yet with my NGC's coins. Trying to sell all my PCGS 70s from my collections. I have my 2001 silver buffolo and 2009 lincoln dollar graded by PCGS, ended they came back 69 with stained around the rim couple of weeks later. That was the last time I sent my coin to PCGS.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 9:19 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The TPGs utilize high energy ultrasonic welding to seal the slabs. There are several inherent problems with this: the polycarbonate material almost always has water and oil inclusions which are not always baked out. The material also contains bisphenol which is considered toxic. The release of these components within the sealed environment of the slab after high energy ultrasonic welding simply finds the enclosed coin as a magnet. The other potentially serious concern is the toxicity of bisphenol particularly for those who like to handle the coins frequently and especially to infants who frequently have wet hands and like to chew. Any chemists, health care experts here ???

 
At June 26, 2011 at 10:28 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

2009 ultra high relief st gaudens gold coin is down 27% from its high. $2,995.00 to $2,195.00 each.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 10:49 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ June 26, 2011 10:28 AM

That's the world of collectibles and precious metals. Values can go up quickly and can go down quickly.

I have found that the best deal is to buy US Mint products that you really want at retail prices. That way, if values go down, at least you have a coin that has sentimental/emotional value as well as monetary value. If prices go up, then you have the same item that you really like that has increased in monetary value as well.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 2:49 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I bought several coins from the mint this year. Why have they not doubled in value yet? What a Jip!

 
At June 26, 2011 at 2:54 PM , Anonymous Mr B. Franklin / Arch St said...

The bottom line is

You buy the coin, not the slab

 
At June 26, 2011 at 2:55 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ June 26, 2011 2:49 PM

You should buy US Mint coins because you like them, not because you expect them to increase in value.

If you look at 2010 ATB 5 ounce coins, eBay sales show that the Hot Springs coins is selling for the most (about $350 on average). Then Yellowstone, then Yosemite. Not a good sign. When you factor in eBay fees, you're really not making that much profit. In fact, you may even lose.

Same is true for those who buy multiple coins, have them certified in hopes of getting a MS70 or PF70, then flip them.

The MS70s/PF70s may sell for a premium, but depending on the coin, a MS69 or PF69 may actually sell for less than an uncertified coin in the original US Mint packaging.

Think twice before you speculate....

 
At June 26, 2011 at 4:00 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very few US Mint coins go up in value more than the bullion prices. The fact is the current issues sell a lot more than older coins of the same kind in open market. Example, you have to pay $1800+ for 2011 Buffalo from the Mint, while the 2006 Bufallo is selling a little bit over spot. After selling fees, you get bullion price anyway or less.
Buying coins is just for a hobby and don't expect to make money.
High tide lifts all boats.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 5:28 PM , Blogger coinman said...

sence the us mint started selling the atb 5 oz uncirculated coin series,on this blog there has been about 90% positive and about 10% doubters,i think il stick with the 90% and keep buying the series.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 5:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

gold is below $1500 again

 
At June 26, 2011 at 6:46 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

As long as our government is not series about debt, money printing, and the economy, I'm not too concerned about the price of gold. Yes, it may go down from time to time, but there is not doubt it will outlast the greenback.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 6:56 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree - as an investor I just consider it a buying opportunity because I want to keep buying - exchanging worthless non-interest bearing debt notes for gold is a no brain-er.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 10:05 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, its true. The 2006 proof buff goes for a little over spot. As I recall if you purchased it when it first came out for 800 bucks you have nearly doubled your money in five years. Where else is it that easy to do. Likewise the '06 bullion buff went for 670 when released. The value is still spot but most dealers will give you less than spot. Still a heckuva return in five years. Now having said all that its not the gold that went up but the paper dollar that went down. And I thought I got screwed paying 800 bucks for an '06 buffalo

 
At June 26, 2011 at 10:31 PM , Blogger JimD said...

6/24/11 3:36 pm
"I know it's not easier to get an SP70 from PCGS than NGC. As stated before, there are only 167 graded SP70 for Hot Springs. That's out of 27,000 minted which is .006% Not a huge number."

After reading this comment, I about had a fit. Not only is it an example of poor use of statistics, it is also incorrect mathematically.

First of all, 167 out of 27000 is 0.6%. Think about moving the decimal point when using a calculator to account for the percentage.

What really bugged me was the fact that you can't make a statement based on one number. The only important number is the ratio of submitted coins to a particular grade. If 1000 were sent in and 167 were 70 then it would be 16.7%, but if only 500 were submitted, the percentage would be 33%.

 
At June 26, 2011 at 11:38 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hot Springs:

396 SP70 out of 1184 submitted to NGC works out to 33.4%. That's a far cry from 0.6%.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 4:26 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

do not buy slabbed coins. do not go for slabbed.

average buying price for modern perfect coins "proof70 or MS70" are around 5% to 10% over buying price of raw coins. and the proof69 or MS69 is 5% to 10% below buying price of raw coins.

well. the selling price for a perfect coins is always overpriced. and the number of slabbed coins is quite high.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 4:43 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

What really bugged me was the fact that you can't make a statement based on one number. The only important number is the ratio of submitted coins to a particular grade. If 1000 were sent in and 167 were 70 then it would be 16.7%, but if only 500 were submitted, the percentage would be 33%.

You are wrong. Math is not an exact science. I have had 2 different calculators give 2 different percentages. In that case the accepted procedure is to use the average of the two values.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 4:54 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

4:43, Thanks for the laugh of the day.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 6:15 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aurum and Argentum down - the saga continues...

 
At June 27, 2011 at 6:39 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Math is not an exact science. I have had 2 different calculators give 2 different percentages. In that case the accepted procedure is to use the average of the two values."

An exact science is any field of science capable of accurate quantitative expression or precise predictions and rigorous methods of testing hypotheses, especially reproducible experiments involving quantifiable predictions and measurements. Mathematics and Physics can be considered as exact sciences in this sense. The difference between Mathematics and Physics is that Mathematics does not describe physical reality whereas Physics does.

The term implies a dichotomy between these fields and others, such as the humanities. Related but not equivalent terms are hard science, pure science, and fundamental science.

Math is just about as much of an exact science as you can get.

Your calculators may not be exact but math, itself, is. Thanks for playing.

LL

 
At June 27, 2011 at 6:59 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Off subject but just wondering.

I have about 1,000.00 in state quarter rolls I got from my local bank when each one came out.

Should I dump them at the bank and use the money for something else,or hang on to them

 
At June 27, 2011 at 7:10 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Depends if you find a buyer to pay enough of a premium for them that it makes it worth selling. Or, you can cherry pick select rolls that have value and hold on to them and cashing the others.

I don't collect the series so I am taking a stab in the dark.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 7:14 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Could be that someone might pay a premium for the whole set as a single lot. May be useful to look into the possibility...

 
At June 27, 2011 at 8:13 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

There was a dealer in Indiana who was paying premiums for state quarter rolls a couple of years ago, but I don't know if that still applies or not. He had published a list of buy prices then, some of which weren't too bad.

I can't remember who he was, but Dave Harper at Numismatic News would be able to tell you if you e-mailed him to ask.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 9:37 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Math is not an exact science. I have had 2 different calculators give 2 different percentages. In that case the accepted procedure is to use the average of the two values."

This is funny, two calculators might have different rounding errors, but not enough to affect the relative answer. Almost every transaction in your daily life involves rounding the amount. Are you really expecting exact change when you purchase the hamburger meal at McDonalds for $4.99 plus 9% tax and you gave $6. Are you going to complain because they gave you $0.56 instead of $0.5609?

 
At June 27, 2011 at 10:02 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gold and silver have experienced a significant loss as of late. I am not sure, but it feels like a big correction in precious metals, I am afraid greater drops are ahead.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 10:11 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

@10:02am

I hope a bigger correction is coming. Corrections are necessary for a sustainable long term bull market.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope PM's keep dropping. At least twice in the past few weeks I wanted to buy more silver but held off. I paid off my student loan but still have that amount budgeted. I might pick up grams of gold each month with the money that I've been using for my loan. Sort of do a automatic investment plan; buy whatever I can with the amount budgeted each month.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 1:32 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

As for me I see the metal price dropping as a great opportunity to buy as it ain't gonna last. There is no economic stability in the world and the politicians of the world like to paper over the problems with money printing. The oil reserve release is a very temporary measure unless the gov't releases a lot more of it which is possible. No politician of any party wants 4 dolla gas before an election next year. So I say its time to load up on the yellow metal coins of your choice and silver if you buy bullion. Unforturnately it would take a massive drop in silver price for the Mint to adjust their silver products downward.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 2:13 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

so how long before the mint adjusts gold prices if the price stays below $1500?

 
At June 27, 2011 at 2:33 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Central Banks from Asia, Europe and US are going to print a lot of paper money to fend off the ecnomic slowdown in the near future. I am taking advantage of the soft patch on silver now and will put more money into gold if correction continues. An annual return of 20% would beat the equity investment over the next few years.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 3:02 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Watch for silver under 30/oz.

 
At June 27, 2011 at 3:35 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

sounds good to me - I'm a buyer not a seller

 
At June 27, 2011 at 4:15 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

if silver drop below $30 i will be a big buyer. the potential of stock equity is unclear for the next few years. S&P profits will not go much higher due to tightening of consumers. Buying PM is a way to balance the poforlio. It is true that Soros sold all his profolio in PM, but small investor like me already learn to be nimble and keep more cash in hand than the hedges. we learn to buy on the dip and get out before the big guys.

 
At July 1, 2011 at 3:27 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I noticed that some coin dealers are selling US unc eagles as being struck at the San Francisco Mint. Since the US Mint said they would make coins struck at the West Point mint and SF mint indistinguisable, how is it possible that these dealers can make such claims?

 
At July 3, 2011 at 4:22 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, they want to make such claims so that so dumb sucker will pay extra for it. Just like some grading Co. slabbing a coin and people will pay EXTRA for it! There's definately a market for suckers out there.

 
At July 3, 2011 at 5:55 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The silver eagles struck at San Francisco ARE distinguishable from those struck at West Point when they are first shipped out in the green monster boxes. The SF boxes have straps that say "San Francisco" and the WP boxes have straps that say "West Point."

Dealers can submit sealed boxes for grading, and the slabs will state the coins were struck at San Francisco.

The novelty will fade in time, but for now dealers are capitalizing on that novelty factor to get buyers to pay extra for the SF silver eagles. I saw one AP selling sealed monster boxes of the SF coins for $1 extra each. $500 for the novelty. No thanks!

 
At July 5, 2011 at 11:08 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 'monster boxes' of eagles have label with their origin on them, and the grading services will put the SF designation on the holders if it comes from one of these unopened boxes from SF.

 

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