Ordering Limits to be Removed for 2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagles
The United States Mint has announced that the ordering limit for the 2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle Gold Coins will be removed effective September 21, 2009 at 9:00 AM ET.
When the coins first went on sale January 19, 2009, there was an ordering limit of only one coin per household. The ordering limit was finally raised to ten coins per household on July 27, 2009. On August 31, 2009, the limit was raised a second time to twenty five coins per household.
As the ordering limits have been raised, the pace of sales for the UHR has ratcheted higher. Before the US Mint began raising the limit, the coins were selling at a pace of less than 1,000 coins per week. The first week of sales following the ordering limit increase to 10, the US Mint saw 3,799 coins ordered. In the most recent week, the US Mint sold 2,298 coins, bringing the total sales to 92,346.
The UHR Double Eagles are currently priced at $1,339 each. Under the US Mint's pricing policy, the price of the coins can be adjusted as often as once per week if the average price of gold moves across the designated $50 price increments. The current price of $1,339 reflects an average price of gold between $950.00 to $999.99. A price increase was narrowly missed this week, but if gold retains its current levels, UHR prices would be increased to $1,389 by the middle of next week. The US Mint has generally put price changes into effect around mid-morning on Wednesday.
Labels: Ultra High Relief
posted by Mint News Blog @ 10:57 AM
56 Comments:
Watch the premiums on eBay disappear for raw/MS69 coins
Glad I bought and sold mine/mothers/sisters back in March...
The premiums will never disappear for this beautiful coin. The price will obviously rise and fall with the spot price of gold, but this coin will forever have demand. It looks like the Mint will likely cut sales off at the 100,000 unit level, which isn't a tremendous quantity of coins.
They might be sitting on a ton of these and need to clear them out before the end of the year. Why would they rush to sell the last 8000 or so when there is 3 months to go. It would be funny if they made 200,000 or so.
I would love to have one of theses, but I keep thinking I would love to have 50 2009 silver eagles instead (if they ever make them)
I think the first strike or early release's of these coins will have a huge premium because if you want this coin, these would be the coins to get if you are a true collector.
I sold mine last month once I found out the limits were going up. It is a shame that the mint didn't keep the limit to 1.
Limits or not these coins are beautiful and will command a premium long term. Period. People just looking for short term gains are going to be sorry they sold them.
There won't be 200,000 of these coins sold. The Mint will be taking this one off-sale within the month. They will then begin to sell the 2009 Gold Eagle Proof coins for a short time.
The Ultra High Relief will forever be a great coin to have, graded or not. Third-party grading is perceived by many to be a good thing, but in a lot of ways it is just a way to get people to needlessly spend extra money for a meaningless label. Haven't you noticed that the exact same grading company will grade the EXACT same coin specimen with two different grades on two different days? How can that give you confidence in what they say?
I'm sure the grading company fans will slam me for saying so, but I stand by my words.
I have to TOTALLY agree with the previous poster on TPG. I learned the hard way with PCGS. I decided that I would just keep coins in my collection which are gems in original mint packaging, and sell the rest. The TPG hype will eventually deflate in deference to common sense.
I sure hope that the mint does not "overmint" these. But right now is a good time to buy slabbed UHR's. If you shop carefully and use Bing you can get a MS69 for fifty to seventy five dollars than the current mint direct price. MS70's seem to be available in the low 1600 dollar range-- again--- use some Bing buying power and you can land a MS70 for right around $1500.
I would welcome each of your opinions.
If you could get a MS69PL at the very same price as a MS70 which would you buy?
Which do you think will hold it's value better or appreciate more over time the MS69PL or the "plain jane" MS70?
Given the choice between MS-69 PL or MS70. I would choose the ms70
Well, a nice discussion with various ranging opinions providing a basis for personal decision making. Let me toss in my two cents. My son is a successful attorney and bought me a UHR coin for my birthday this year. Truly a wonderful, beautiful gift. I knew it was coming when he asked if I wouldn't mind getting it late since he was going to "send" it out to obtain a "CAC" sticker and it might not return in time. I asked where the coin originated, he said direct from the Mint and it was still in the sealed carton. That was good enough for me! The Mint's quality on certain of their newer offerings are popping out of the striking dies as a solid "MS70", with gorgeous eye appeal, no little hype sticker is needed. I've got a pretty good eye for solid quality and beauty....after all, I picked my son's mother didn't I? You don't need someone to tell you what you already know. -Grandpa
I really really hope these coins don't go to much over 100k minted. Either way I find it a tad embarssing for some people who think the UHR is just another gold coin.. Longterm these babies will have a very large premium even if they do mint over 100k. That number still seems fairly slim to what is considered to be the most beautiful legendary gold coin ever created.
I own 3 of these, 2 MS69 and one MS70 (PCGS).. As far as TPG is conserned sure most companys are scams and just in it for the money but when it really comes down to coin collecting.
Only a few things matter Mintage and usually condition/grade... I'll never understand why anyone these days is fine with having raw coins especially a raw UHR. I would literaly have nightmares of the coins being damaged,scratched or whatever the case especially for a solid gold coin that can bend very easily when they are not sonically sealed and slabbed.. You'll never know what a coin can truly be worth if it isn't graded first.. You woouldn't buy a used car without knowing the millage and test driving it first would you? Just my two cents..
A USED car needs to be tested for the simple reason that it's a USED car. The same reasons for circulated and old coins. Further a car is a mechanical machine(prone to faults when operated) whereas a gold coin is just solid gold.
I've bot 25 UHRDE and not grading a single one of them. From what I can see, almost all of these fresh/raw coins from the mint are in top quality (MS69/70) anyway. It's not like I am gonna take the coins out to play with it and risk damaging it. The coins are gonna stay in their original sealed capsules. (they will stay the way they left the mint)
Absolutely no reasons that I will feel better just because someone endorsed it for what it already is.
I'm guessing the final mintage on UHRDE maybe low and if that's the case and assuming it's still available from the mint towards yr end.. I might just purchase somemore.
To the response a few posts ahead:
I didn't think CAC grades modern coins.
Just got a NGC MS69 + Packaging for
$1375.00
-110.00 Bing cash back
-27.50 Ebay bucks
Total $1238.00 Not to Shabby
I can almost hear the thundering sound of the buffalo stampede at the mint, keep your powder dry boys, the herd is getting ready to crest the hill...
Finally, another beautiful gold coin may be in site.
Goldilocks
Third-party grading is perceived by many to be a good thing, but in a lot of ways it is just a way to get people to needlessly spend extra money for a meaningless label.
I just have to disagree with this.
For the UHR, it may not make much difference if a grading company slaps an "MS70" label on it (I assume most UHR coins have graded/will grade MS70).
But for a lot of other coins, getting an authoritative, conservative grade (as opposed to the grade assigned by the seller, who excuses his overgrading of his coin by claiming all grading is just an "opinion") can make a huge difference. I, and I am sure most people, would very willingly pay more for a coin graded conservatively by a third party. Plus, in the bargain, you get the little plastic holder, which protects the coin from the elements, being touched or mishandled, etc.
That said, not all grading services are created equal, and a coin graded MS70 by a PCGS or NGC is way more valuable than the same coin given the same grade by one of the second or third tier companies, whose services I view as essentially worthless (unless the point is to try to get a third party to endorse your overgrading, which in my book amounts to "grading fraud").
I think with coin collecting becoming ever so popular grading is going to become very important. As gold and silver go higher, thier is going to be a lot of replicas hitting the market soon and graded coins are going to be that much more crucial. Whenever their is something in the market that is hot, you always will have people that try to sell fake stuff.
That's true. Grading IS very important when it comes to buying old, valuable coins or those that have been known to be counterfeited in the past. There have been cases too of coins that are not even made out of the metal that they are SUPPOSED to be made of being sold. At least those are more isolated cases, and are not exactly the norm.
As for grading of these new coins, I still say that it is just a way to get people all stirred up and spend unnecessary money for a slab and a label. When every coin comes back at least an MS-69, what's the point? Especially since an MS-69 can be re-submitted to the same company and may come back an MS-70 the next time?
And by the way, don't even get me STARTED on that silly "First Strike" nonsense!
I guess the most important thing is to know who you're buying from, and try your best to only deal with those you trust.
If a coin grades a 70, IMHO I should be able to purchase it without any hesitation as a "perfect, screened" coin. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOT BEEN THE CASE!!! To give you an example I just purchased by mail a PCGS PF70 Jefferson Nickel. The obverse looks fine. The reverse has innumerable large shiny spots (broken frost) spread all over Monticello. (I do have a 10X loupe.) Am I supposed to be satified whith this? I AM NOT! Clearly there is a lot of fuzz in the grading process and it becomes largely a throw of dice. This has happened to me several times in the past. As far as I am concerned there is no better way than to buy coins ungraded, pick the ones which satisfy you, keep them, and dispose off the rest.
Well said... totally agreed.
OK, another two cent opinion. Other than ordering directly from a minting facitity (a real MINT, DOMESTIC OR FOREIGN), I don't as a general rule buy coins, sets, albums, bags, what have you from mail sources, especially ebay sellers. I DO however buy from coin show "dealers", from show or bourse tables and regular coin shows at times. That has been a long standing rule for the best part of 45-46 years. I want to see the seller, handle and INSPECT my purchase, and agree with MY understanding that I'm buying what I really want. Have I or do I miss some coins along the way because of timing or location availability? Certainly, but I also don't have to worry that whatever someone ships me from Osh-kosh is A-OK, sight unseen.
Am I a goodie 2 shoes or perfect? Nope. But I also seem to get screwed a whole lot less than many. If you see it, you be the judge on it's grade, eye appeal, and also have the ability to "negotiate" pricing with the seller who is standing or sitting in front of you in case of minor disagreemnt. Amazing the friends you develope and sources you can trust year after year.
Much too much emphasis is being foisted on todays gimmie-gimmie generation.....get the "upper hand", screw the other guy first and run, pay exhoribitant fees of prices to obtain a false sense of feel good. Just ain't worth it friends. Never was, never will be.
Last thing I want to share, in 2001, by ACCIDENT, I double ordered the American Buffalo head silver Eagles and brought several to the monthly coin show to see what I might get since Coin World was showing very large premiums over my direct purchase price. I started at the biggest table and the "dealer" offered a generous but IMO low ball premium. That's his choice. The small time seller to his left had none to sell on his table. I asked him as well. He said he hadn't sold too much that Sunday, and had little cash, BUT, if he had the money next month, he would offer "X". The big dealer was listening and had his eye on my briefcase. I asked the small dealer if he had X-Y-or Z. Items I wanted to buy. He said yes. Well you guessed it..I traded 7 Eagles in orig boxes to him at a lower price than the big dealer offered, and walked away with items I wanted. It doesn't hurt to give the other guy the same brake you would wish for yourself. We have been friends for years now. Sorry to be so long winded. Oh well. -Grandpa.
Yes! I do see your point. Clearly, to avoid the clearing house clean up and dispose operation one must have trusting relationships. Otherwise one ends up as a pawn.
I have actually developed a significantly greater appreciation for coins since I started vetting them myself. In other words I KNOW my collection intimately. And my goal is to have a very nice collection period.
I also do think that TPGs should earn their keep and exercise greater control on their high grades. They stand to lose credibility and PCGS has lost it with yours truly.
I will only buy a graded coin off of eBay. That way I know it is genuine. There are too many fakes out there. I also only sell graded coins on eBay. That way I don't have a hold put on my PayPal account when a buyer claims I sent him a fake coin.
I couldn't give a tinkers dam if a UHR is a 69 or a 70. As long as it doesn't nicks in the surface, I will be happy with a raw coin (as long as it is real).
As for grading of these new coins, I still say that it is just a way to get people all stirred up and spend unnecessary money for a slab and a label. When every coin comes back at least an MS-69, what's the point? Especially since an MS-69 can be re-submitted to the same company and may come back an MS-70 the next time?:
I disagree with this statment mainly because obvious sales have proven the much higher premium paid for when compareing a coin that has been graded a 69 coampared to a 70 or even a coin graded 68 to 69!! I'ts a big differnes in value
Especially camparing those graded coins when compared to a raw coin... Not to get off topic here but eitehr way I personally think havibng an ultra high relief will be a fantastic investment/collectable in the future..
Spiff
I try to buy directly from the mint if I see something that I like (e.g., the UHR, Buffaloes, SAEs, neat commemoratives, etc.).
If I was stupid and didn't order from the mint in time, my next choice is graded coins from eBay or at shows. There is some finger crossing that the grading company (NGC or PCGS) did its job. Yes...I agree that graded coins may have huge premiums; however, it's the only way that those of us with limited access to dealers have a shot of getting what we want after the fact. Like a previous poster, I will only buy graded coins off of eBay (not raw). I figured this out the hard way after buying a raw coin that had a significant scratch that the seller "didn't mention." I have been happy since purchasing the graded stuff and continue to keep my fingers crossed.
As a side note, I have heard the horror stories of counterfeiters hocking their wares on eBay in PCGS and NGC slabs. Many of the coins that I buy on eBay have images of that specific coin located on the respective grading company's website. It is possible to do a very fine comparison between the grading company's images and the coin that I receive to determine if the coin is real (i.e., the same on in the image). Each slabbed coin has minute details (primarily on the slab itself) in the image that would be impossible (or ridiculously time consuming if it was possible) for a counterfeiter to copy. My thought is that it would be great if the grading companies mandated hi-res images of ALL coins so that buyer could make this comparison. JMO.
Well the Presidential dollars appears headed for more failure. No one seems to want them, to carry them, or use them no matter how hard the Government is pushing to end the paper dollar in favor of the coin.
Since inception, in order to promote the coins, the Mint allowed for banks, dealers, educators and a few others to obtain "advertising materials" free of charge to display to the public. The following message was just posted on their website:
"Thank you for your patronage of the Free Presidential $1 Coin Informational Materials website. Unfortunately, due to cost considerations, this website has closed. We will, however, continue to offer Presidential $1 Coin Boards and selected other materials. Please check back soon for updates on when and how you may continue to order $1 Coin free materials.
We appreciate your support of the Presidential $1 Coin program. You play an important role in the coin's success, so please spend them. The more $1 Coins that you can help circulate the better, because they last for decades, save our Nation money and are 100% recyclable."
It's rather doubtful that the free materials program will reopen no matter what they claim. There are hundreds of millions of coins in bulging warehouses that no one wants, and the mint by law has to continue minting these. Foolish, so my guess is that they will continue minting the remaining series, by "demand or need"....that equates to collectors only sales just like Kennedy halves. The cessation of free material distribution fortells the dollar series as just another failure. How's the Parks quarter series going to work. It won't. JMO.
The National Parks quarters won't be as popular as the 50 State series was, but at least they will still CIRCULATE. No matter what they look like, quarters will ALWAYS circulate. Dollar coins have been a colossal failure for decades.
I don't plan at this time to try to collect products relating to the National Parks quarters, but that is subject to change based on mintages.
At the rate the US Government is printing money, the dollar coin will become the new quarter coin due to inflation. Maybe that's the government's plan to get these circulating. LOL!
If you check the population report on the PCGS website there has been a few cases where the UHR coins have grade a 68 or less.. even a couple graded a ms63!!! I would think someone would of had to of stepped on the coin first before submitting it for grading lol..
On another note I unfortunetly bought a few proof sets of the first presidential dollars and the value for them has not gone up a cent since a ordred them from the mint sadly but, I could of wasted my money on more expensive worthless coins hehe..I think I'll stick with precious metal coins as I planned to do when starting the hobby.. Spiff
Yeah, precious metals coins are a lot safer to buy than the coins and sets that could easily fall into the category of "passing fads." You just never know what people are going to latch on to and make the "must-have" items in everyone's eyes. I've bought several "dogs" in chasing what I think could be the hot item, but I've also bought several items that turned into real winners too. You just never know.
My company just purchased 5,000 UHR's!!!
Which do you think is going to hold more value
MS69 PL Vs MS69/MS70 ?
The Pops on the all coins graded PL's are way lower (around 11% and considering that the grading between MS69/MS70 is almost 50/50
I don't understand why they would remove the limit?? Are they trying to destroy the value of this coin now or what??? Can someone inlighten me a little pls..
Spiff
Spiff,
The Mint is removing the limit because they're confident that everyone who wants a coin has had ample time to buy one.
Don't fret over it, the removal of the limit will not hurt the value of this awesome coin in the slightest. You mark my words, the Mint will be taking the coin off sale VERY soon. Possibly even by the end of this month. If you want any more, you had best go ahead and make your order quickly before it disappears.
Anonymous said...
My company just purchased 5,000 UHR's!!!
September 21, 2009 6:48 AM
wow... is your company a dealer or private collector?
Or, are you and your company full of &@#$? :)
Will the mint's price of the UHR's go up $50 this week since gold has broken the 1K $ barrier and stayed there for a few days???
Makes me think I should move on getting one of the MS70's off the bay--- they are currently in the $1600 to $1700 range--- and with Bing dollars and ebay reward bucks I could get a MS70 for less than $1500.
I currently have (all NGC) a MS70, MS70PL, and MS69PL. I'd really like to get a PCGS MS70 but they seem to be selling on the bay at about a hundred dollars more than a NGC MS70 right now.
Decisions, decisions.
MSL
With UHR expecting to break 100K in mintage; does anyone still think this coin is a good investment for the future?
And what are the chances that the Mint come out with alternative versions of the gold UHR in proof/uncirculated?
About the mint devalueing (sp?) coins, remember, they are in the buisness of manufacturing coins. They could and should care less about the secondary market value of their products. The more they sell, the more THEY make.
At this point, I think the chances of the Mint making alternate versions of the UHR are slim to none. There has been no mention of any other versions, and the year is almost over.
I still say this coin will be a great coin to have for years to come. It has several things going for it: It is a very special "one-year-only" issue, it is the first (and very likely last) appearance of the original double eagle reverse since 1933, and it's made of pure .9999 fine gold.
100,000-125,000 coins is not a tremendous number for a coin with worldwide demand. The 2006 Buffalo gold proof coin still fetches a nice premium over spot, and it had a mintage of over 250,000. This coin will without a doubt outperform that coin.
I bought two more of them a few weeks ago when the price was still $1,289. I had bought my limit of one coin last January for the original issue price of $1,189, but I sold that one in the sealed box for $1,750 a couple months later. The two I just bought recently are for me to actually open up, look at and hold on to for a while. These truly are BEAUTIFUL coins.
By the way, my coin from last January is one of the NGC MS-70 coins. The buyer sent me pictures of it after getting it back from NGC.
Wow lucky him.. I'd like to get another just to hold in my hands and feel the relief since I allready have 3 that are graded by PCGS and one is a ms70 (my first coin I bought). I just love these coins. I probably look at them atleast once a week since I've had them, they are just awesome..I doubt I'll be able to scrape up enough to buy one more before the mint stops production...
there are suposed "myths" that the mint has considered a Palladium UHR in the future but it has to be passed by congress (It took TEN attempts to get the 24K version to finally pass). I think it would be fantastic if they did this in a proof version and maybe made a mint limit of 250k JMO..
Spiff
Just wanted to leave a note for the guy who bought a PF70 PCGS nickel... the whole idea with any certification is that if something IS wrong with it, you have the right to go back to the TPG and have something done about the wrong grade. If its graded PF70 and you see spots, by all means turn it into PCGS for re-evaluation and compensation.
However, my initial assumption is that the coin you got was probably either a faked slab or some no-name TPG whose initials were close to PCGS. PCGS does not hand out MS70 lightly by any means. I have trouble finding problems with coins they grade MS69! Please verify that its a genuine PCGS slabbed coin.
Did the coin say "PF"? If so, then its definitely not PCGS. PCGS uses 'PR' or 'PRDC' or 'PRCA' as well as several other proof and satin finish designations, but not just 'PF'.
In addition, you should be able to look up the coin on their website with the certification # on the slab and that should further verify that you are holding a true PCGS-graded coin.
I agree with Lasloo. if you get a 70 from PCGS you know it's legit. That's why there coins demand such a high premium and I personaly would never ever submit coins to any other third part other then pcgs.
NGC are very solid graders also but IMO there holders look like they are a walmart brand design or something if you know what I mean. No offence NGC..
I have two other UHR that are ms69 and I honestly can't see the flaw at all but on another note as far as the grade for the nickel goes.. There are certain mint strike flaws on coins that some graders feel that certain blemishes from a strike isn't necessarly considered a flaw. Examples die stains or even copper spotting on 22k gold coins. The MS70 UHR I have has an obvious die stain on the obverse if you angle just right on the light to notice it, but like I said some of these things aren't considered flaws since it's more or less from the die itself..
Spiff
Anyone has the latest mintages on UHR? Probably close to 100K figure?
Next week's number will be interesting with the limits lifted.
Anyone's guess if it's either gonna sellout soon or continue strong sales into year end.
Anyone adding on to your UHR before the price increase ??
I still say the UHR will be taken off-sale by the end of this month.
I kinda think that would be awesome if they stopped production at the end of this month. 100K or less minted is a very low number for this coin especially if it has world wide demand!! I just hope the world doesn't end in 2012!! LOL
Spiff
Hmn... now even if the UHR dun make it as the most investible coin of the year; it's probably gonna make it as the most expensive gold coin for the year!
The entry price of UHR just keeps going up; makes you wonder if anyone will be paying premiums on top of this already high prices in the future and if UHR is a coin to invest in at all? comments anyone?
As far as the grading goes, the coin IS worth what people will pay for it. That can fluctuate, but just because some people are buying high and selling low, doesn't mean everyone is. There is nothing wrong with selling a coin at auction that is perfectly described, packaged, and delivered for a profit. By selling 1 NGC MS70PL for $5k, I essentially got 2 UHRs for free and over $1k in my pocket. One way or another, unless the guy who bought it spent more than he could afford, he’s going to do well so long as he doesn’t sell it now. They are selling very low now comparatively, but people think that the average UHR coin is better than it is. The majority of the coins I first received from the mint, I looked over and returned. How many of the UHRs being bought at the mint right now are coins that were returned from people looking them over to decide which they think will grade PL or MS70. IMO the MS70 is 1/3 of the mintage at best, probably much lower. I can respect that some people like the coin in the original mint packaging. And, most people who are looking at a MS68 will think it’s a MS70. An MS68 still looks quite impressive. But if it is in any way an investment, you can’t go wrong with buying from the mint and having it graded. I do have to say that I am a little annoyed with the mint lately, though. They sent out the first 2009 Lincoln roll with no notification and IMO they intentionally didn't make enough of them. They did the same thing with the Peace Nickel in 2004. The 50 state quarters are followed up with a Territory and now National Parks? The Sacagawea's values have plummeted since they now have 6 new dollar coins a year. The 2009 proof set is up to $50. At what point do people say, it's just too much. They need to respect their numismatic base a little more IMO. They are in the business of making money though ;)
I'm a fan of grading as well.
Haven't really been able to afford buying a UHR or First Spouse coin yet though. Would love too eventually.
For now, my relatively 'inexpensive' collecting strategy is to collect all the coins in each current year at really good grades (specifically PCGS). Whether I buy rolls and send them to be graded or buy pre-graded coins, I think in the long term, its a win-win. I usually only buy MS66 and higher, occasionally making an exception for a MS65 here and there. I then put them on the PCGS registry and like to compare how I'm doing against others. In the end, the PCGS valuation of my coins so far is a good deal greater than what I paid for them. Over time, I think it could be worth something. Regardless, this my version of a true-blue uncirculated set since the coins I collect/grade are business strike version... not proof... not satin finish.
Ok, I should write this up into some kind of article for Michael's CoinUpdate blog! :-)
I noticed the backdate order on UHR is removed today; seems stock is readily available for any new orders...
Does this imply that the Mint just secure fresh blanks and are now producing more UHR for stocks?
Well, it may just mean that now the dealers are gonna hoard more of these UHR... depressing their potentials for a LONG time.
These secondary market dealers are are gonna keep the supplies in these UHR going well after the Mint sellout.
Anyone hoping to make a good investment out of the UHR maybe disappointed
Well IMO they would have to make a good 250 to 300K of these babies to deprciate for long term value and there is no way it will happen unless they decide to sell through next year..
Spiff
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